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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Mar 8, 2020 3:19:07 GMT
I've been reading about (and discussing in other forums) VW's new so-called Vehicle Diagnostic Protection (which has the manufacturer's associated three-letter-acronym, SFD).
As I understand (and I hope that my understanding is wrong) - Volkswagen AG will introduce the new SFD procedure for ALL models manufactured from 2020: starting with MQB37W platform build model (Golf 8).
I admit that I can find very little from VW by way of justification for SFD, but it seems that the previous procedure for module access using a 5-digit login code will be enhanced/superseded (I don't know which) by SFD in a 2 x stage process.
Anyhow, from my reading of how SFD will work, it seems that the simple task of writing to modules will no longer be possible for specific writing services (codings, adjustments, parametrisations), without VW verification via individual username and password in stage 1 and stronger VW Portal authentication in stage 2.
These new processes kind-of make sense (in a perverse way) for users of the dealer tool (ODIS) because of the comms-link with databases and servers at VW's head-office. But, at least at face value, the new restrictions appear to pose serious questions for existing and prospective-new users who intend to apply OBD11 devices to MY20 and post MY20 vehicles.
I note that OBDeleven is marketed as having a VW "Official license" and that the device is "Volkswagen Group Certified" - but I have never understood what this means. I'm hoping that this perhaps means that SFD will be seamlessly integrated into user software - but I'm conscious that this might be wishful thinking rather than commercial reality.
Again, I repeat that my understanding of the impact of SFD to non-ODIS diagnostic devices is poor - so can someone @ OBD11 please comment on how Vehicle Diagnostic Protection will impact their products?
Don
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Post by OBDeleven on Mar 8, 2020 10:43:04 GMT
Hi, I can confirm that OBDeleven and all other third party diagnostic tools will not work with latest vag vehicles. As we have official license with VW AG we already have all documentation how to integrate SFD into our diagnostic system, but there are still a lot of questions abouth that to start implementation process. Communication with them are vere slow so I can't provide any eta when we will be ready for that. I will provide more information when we get it explained by Volkswagen AG.
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duw
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Post by duw on Mar 8, 2020 13:06:51 GMT
Is there a chance, that at minimum the V2 adapter is working with the new protocol?
It was one of the reason to buy a new V2 adapter to ensure that I'm safe for the next future
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 17:17:47 GMT
Hopefully this is just access security, when its all clear it would be nice to know if you guys have to pass back the changes we make to VW.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Mar 8, 2020 23:42:03 GMT
Hopefully this is just access security, when its all clear it would be nice to know if you guys have to pass back the changes we make to VW. testeronline: hmm........ As I said in my initial question- there is much that I don't know about SFD (Schutz FahrzeugDiagnose= Vehicle Diagnostic Protection?) but without wanting to catastrophize the situation, the new protocol has the potential to make ALL non ODIS diagnostic devices un-usable on the future fleet of VAG vehicles (i.e. across all VAG brands)! Again, this is purely my understanding (my concern) based on the scant information that's publicly available to us mere mortals - as distinct from the information available to the quasi deities who reside within VAG's inner sanctum!
Clearly VOLTAS IT are aware of some of the issues which is not surprising given that SFD could fundamentally impact the application of their business model to post MY20 vehicles
Again based on my limited understanding, SFD appears to have elements of the current 5 x digit security codes PLUS elements of Component Protection - but with much wider application. I believe (not sure really) that under SFD protocol, the ability to read module data like control unit event memory will not be affected. However, there does appear to be doubt (at least in my mind) as to whether any changes to module values in long-code, adaptation channels, basic settings will be permitted.
In trying to understand how SFD will impact us users, I've tried to understand the objective of "Vehicle Diagnostic Protection" - but I have been singularly unsuccessful: VW simply provides no justification (at least none that I can access as a mere mortal).
The name of the new protocol suggests that it provides "Protection" - but who is it protecting? At least VAG justify Component Protection as protecting consumers from the trade of stolen spare parts on the black market. But Vehicle Diagnostic Protection appears to be driven by an entirely different imperative (I think). It's almost as if VAG has designed SFD (when fully implemented) as an IP protection mechanism for the software in their cars. SFD appears (to me at least) to be a kind-of impregnable fire-wall based on the idea that buyers from 2020 onward will purchase a form of software license with their cars - but they will not be able to change the operating parameters for that software without VAG's express permission.
If I'm correct (and I hope that I'm not), servicing of post MY20 vehicles will be the sole market of dealers and registered workshops (here in Australia, VW won't register independent workshops) with part of the revenue for vehicle service being distributed in a particular manner-perhaps? And I've no doubt that the VAG model will also be copied by other car manufacturers once they realize its potential to shareholders - perhaps
Anyhow - I'm more than happy for my concerns to be unfounded and I reiterate that ALL of the above is shrouded in the uncertainty of the sparse SFD information that is currently available !! 
Don
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 10:37:29 GMT
No idea why but VW are defo more interested in stopping you upgrading cars than other manufacturers (unless you buy it from them or via authorised sellers of course) As you can see in the snippet below the mapping guys have confirmed that VAG are handling security differently to other manufacturers . If you look at the Bosch MG1 and MD1 ECU, which was introduced back in 2016. This type of ECU controls both petrol and diesel engines, fitted to a wide variety of vehicles. Including the Ford Fiesta ST MK8, Audi S4, RS4 and more. Ford has used the same ECU, why is your Software available for those models and not VAG models? The simple answer is security, Ford didn’t include it to the extent that Volkswagen Audi group did, and this is what is holding everything and everyone up. Maybe Ford is more understanding of their customers choice to modify their vehicles?
We have also seen Audi stopping VIM upgrades and having to have the bonet open to allow changes
My personal view is that we will be able to make SOME changes to the cars but they will all be recorded on VW Servers although if history has taught us anything when Governments / Companies try and stop you doing stuff then hackers will find / build tools that allow you to do it (just as the mapping companies have techs who hack into ECU's).
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Apr 19, 2020 23:57:11 GMT
Tester: There doesn't appear to be much in the way of public information about SFD and the VAG decision-makers in the "Vaterland" are notoriously secretive when it comes to justifying any of their regimes.
Perhaps there is some clue in the name - "SFD" is probably an acronym for Fahrzeug Schutz Diagnose (I'm guessing, of course) but as I indicated in my first post - in the English VW literature it's called "Vehicle Diagnostic Protection". This name begs the question: who is the regime intended to protect? Given the cloak of secrecy that surrounds SFD and the tight system of registrations that is needed with the mother-ship for even the simplest of module changes - I can't see that SFD is intended to protect consumers.
Here is extract from VW that explains the extent of SFD:
The protection requirement will be defined for specific control units and diagnostic objects.
The protection requirement is limited to specific writing services (codings, adjustments,
parametrisations) and routines.
Normal reading services (e.g. readout of control unit event memories) will not be SFD-protected.
The functions of data string downloading with boot loader data strings, flashing and/or update programming as well as flash data security are also not affected by SFD
Down here in the Antipodes, my understanding is that VW/Audi has refused to allow independent workshops to access FAZIT (I believe that this matter has/will-be investigated by our consumer protection authority). SFD appears to be an extension of this philosophy in that it is a requisite that the user is registered in the SFD IT back end and in the Dealer Portal (in future, the Group Retail Portal).
But I suspect that the decision to implement SFD is really all about enhancing value for VAG shareholders: the impact of the regime will be to transfer income that is currently with independent workshops - to dealers/registered workshops. Ultimately of course, this will increase the value of dealerships for VAG.
Unfortunately - manufacturers of diagnostic devices have been caught-up in the SFD rollout. I don't know what OBDeleven mean by "we have official license with VW AG" and what impact this "license" will have for OBD11 devices. But, from my reading of the new regime, I can't see how the need for user registration on the Dealer portal can be extended to allow OBD11 users access to module coding/channels in SFD vehicles - but I'm more than happy to be corrected!
Don
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Post by Thirsty on Apr 20, 2020 9:09:10 GMT
There will be an announcement regarding SFD soon. I'm pretty sure that all your questions will be answered  |
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Post by tonykr76 on May 15, 2020 22:06:51 GMT
some news?
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Post by Thirsty on May 16, 2020 7:28:27 GMT
Due to some delay on the VW side, it's taking longer than expected. Once voltas gets the needed information they'll inform us  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 13:10:19 GMT
thirsty I know this is not you delaying updates but could you ask the OBD11 Dev team as the new gen cars are starting to be out and about on the roads I am guessing some people will be trying to use OBD11 Device on the new model cars. I appreciate that VAG are taking there time (they have a few issues on there plate already) but I do think an update on where we are and more importantanly what will the impact be on new car owners until this is sorted. For example does this mean users can only scan but cant do live data / code and run stuff like basic settings.
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Post by OBDeleven on Jun 10, 2020 11:04:06 GMT
We are still working on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 13:50:41 GMT
Thanks for the update. So as expected on the new Golf, Leon, Audi etc you currently can't code, run apps or basic settings etc. From conversations I have had with other members you can only read but currently there are missing control units but it is possible to scan (allowing for fact you are not seeing all control units). Fully understand why and only reason I wanted an update is we are starting to see people saying they have issues with there car that I am sure are related to this issue. look forward to update in due course.
Update 11/06
I have been looking at getting VCP And noticed the following on there site
VW introduced a SFD (Schutz Fahrzeug Diagnose) in MQB2020 platform. To get access to adaptations / coding and even output checks, ECU has to be unlocked by special Token.
Tokens can be currently obtained only by using offcial GeKo/partner company account.
So, if you want to work with SFD -> go ahead and apply for access. There's currently NO OTHER WAY.
Stay tuned for our news in that case.
So it is possible and will happen in time to the OBD11 Tool.
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Post by tonykr76 on Jul 3, 2020 17:18:57 GMT
Hi
I wanted to know if with the last update oh 01/07 there is same update
Thank
Antonio
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 19:07:50 GMT
I actually emailed support today to ask when they expect the release. It was not listed in release note so would not expect it to be included.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 3, 2020 23:49:50 GMT
I actually emailed support today to ask when they expect the release. It was not listed in release note so would not expect it to be included. tester:thanks for your time in chasing-up this matter - which with each passing day into 2020 is becoming more restrictive!
It seems to me that unless there is a solution, SFD could well be a deal-breaker for any prospective buyer, or all current OBD11 users with a MY20 (or post MY20) build vehicle! So, this issue is fundamental to the value proposition for purchasing an OBD11 device for the latest vehicles; SFD is therefore very different to the plethora of other issues that get posted on this part of the forum.
I and I'm sure, other prospective users were encouraged by VOLTAS IT's much vaunted "official license with VW AG" and their position that "we already have all documentation how to integrate SFD into our diagnostic system" in their May 2020 reply above. But you latest reply is concerning!
I certainly don't intend any offense and I still don't understand your relationship with OBD11 head office - but you appear to have good access to the "inner sanctum", which is a valuable and much appreciated facility by forum members (and by me in particular).
So, with the greatest respect - "not listed in release note" - what does this mean for those of us users in the real world? I may have missed any official notice - but can we have a formal release date from OBD11 head-office regarding SFD?
I can understand why OBD11 might not want to commit to a formal release date, but as I have suggested, SFD has the potential to render OBD11 inoperative to ALL new vehicles - so it's an important matter!!! Plus, a release date provides a yard-stick for establishing user expectations - and it has the pivotal advantage for us users in that it is a measure of accountability for the OBD11 team.
Once again, my appreciation for your role in communicating with us - I apologize for making you the "meat-in-the-sandwich"!
Don
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Post by Thirsty on Jul 4, 2020 7:52:00 GMT
dv52 (Australia) +1 You're right we should know what the current progress is. I have a meeting with the team next week(if everything works out) and there i'm gonna ask them regarding sfd.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 8:07:19 GMT
Don for your info i have no relationship with the OBD11 Team / company.
Just a user who has an interest in understanding how the software works / can be used to get the car to do stuff.
My link with head office is via the various support mails / chat systems where I am persistent (aka pain in the back side) in asking questions.
Thirsty is a good champion in making the guys aware of the user community feelings on these matters so fingers crossed.
When I said the release note did not mention it I was only trying to convey that I would hope this SFD Fix would be a big deal (as you rightly point out from a sales perspective) so would expect a lot of PR on the release and also an update to Beta testers to make sure it works ok.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 8:04:38 GMT
Got a response from support this morning, Currently they (support) do not have any update on SFD (and they did apologize for that), hopefully Thirsty will get a more in depth response from the team. |
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Post by Thirsty on Jul 12, 2020 10:24:28 GMT
Little update:
Meeting will take place on tuesday.
Hopefully i'm then able to provide you some new information.
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Post by mralix on Jul 14, 2020 23:06:14 GMT
I was going to purchase the OBDEleven Pro till i come across this, is there anymore updates you can provide? I dont want to purchase and then find that the post 20’ cars wont work.
Thank in advance
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Post by Thirsty on Jul 15, 2020 7:33:29 GMT
Voltas will post here soon and let you know what they can say atm.
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Post by turbolag on Jul 20, 2020 2:59:05 GMT
I own a 2020 Rs3 and I can’t apply any apps to it, I’m just getting the same error for all of them - imgur.com/a/VaP2VN0What am I missing? |
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Post by mralix on Jul 20, 2020 17:31:33 GMT
I own a 2020 Rs3 and I can’t apply any apps to it, I’m just getting the same error for all of them - imgur.com/a/VaP2VN0What am I missing? So far post 2020 cars dont work without talking to VAG network with dealer software. Were just awaiting on Voltas for more information. |
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Post by OBDeleven on Jul 21, 2020 6:04:59 GMT
As an official Volkswagen partner, we can confirm that conversation regarding 2020 vehicle support is in progress and we are waiting for the documentation from Volkswagen AG. We can not commit to a formal release date, as this depends on a third party - Volkswagen AG. As soon as we will get any documentation we will officially inform all our community members. Stay tuned!
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Post by onur2006 on Jul 24, 2020 14:03:13 GMT
when we can use our devices  |
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Post by Thirsty on Jul 24, 2020 14:40:38 GMT
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Post by dediehl on Jul 25, 2020 0:08:34 GMT
My concern is that VW will lock it down to the point that we won't even be able to scan for codes, or clear the CEL, which could require a paid visit to the dealer each and every time a CEL is triggered.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 25, 2020 0:26:01 GMT
^^^^Thirsty: It is with a degree of trepidation that I write once more! Without intending any offense to you and acknowledging your much appreciated role in bridging the communication divide between (forum) users and the OBD11 mother-ship, I'm not sure that "the post above yours" adds any further information to onur2006 question (or my questions). Again, with the greatest respect to you and without wanting to "shoot-the-messenger" - whilst it's great to have an official response from VOLTAS, users and prospective buyers remain completely in the dark about the impact of SFD on their purchase for MY20 & MY20+ VAG vehicles. As I wrote in another place: I'm more than happy for my concerns about SFD to be unfounded - but it just seems odd that VAG would go to the trouble and expense of creating this new body of what seems to be quite draconian restrictions for post MY20 models and then to circumvent the entire protocol by allowing independent cable manufacturers to bypass the limitations. But again, mine is just speculation based on my scant understanding of SFD and based on a total lack of knowledge of the discussions between VOLTAS and VAG!! So I acknowledge that my views are full of many holes in my understanding of the issue!!What information can be made public about this matter? For example, can we at least be assured that there will be an OBD11 solution to SFD eventually and is it simply a matter of time? Or is the quest for OBD11 to accommodate SFD more likely to be the delicious impossibility of an impossible task?
I'm not sure if I should apologize for being so insistent (I feel not) and I suspect that these questions are probably not what VOLTAS wants to read in a public forum, but these are unfortunately legitimate user concerns that (as I have said in the past) grow in importance with each passing day as more new models with SFD in their DNA are purchased! Don |
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 25, 2020 1:10:10 GMT
My concern is that VW will lock it down to the point that we won't even be able to scan for codes, or clear the CEL, which could require a paid visit to the dealer each and every time a CEL is triggered. deiehi: Thanks for your reply.
Like you, I'm not knowledgeable about what VAG intends with SFD - but there is thankfully at least some information in the public domain in respect of your stated concern.
Here's an extract from VW regarding SFD (I have applied bold to words):
- The protection requirement is limited to specific writing services (codings, adjustments, parametrisations) and routines. Normal reading services (e.g. readout of control unit event memories) will not be SFD-protected. The functions of data string downloading with boot loader data strings, flashing and/or update programming as well as flash data security are also not affected by SFD.
So - and again with the caveat that I'm extrapolating the current dearth of SFD information: it should still be possible to interrogate the Gateway module for the installed module list and their error events. I suspect that this means that scan reports will be available - I think And, I suspect (perhaps "hope" is a better word) that simple events like clearing the service reminder message will also be permitted - I think And I suspect/hope that clearing DTCs that result from faults on peripheral components will also be able to be possible (once the peripheral is fixed/replaced and assuming that the fix doesn't need a basic setting procedure to be completed)- I think
Don
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