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Post by Thirsty on Jul 25, 2020 8:56:19 GMT
^^^^Thirsty: It is with a degree of trepidation that I write once more! Without intending any offense to you and acknowledging your much appreciated role in bridging the communication divide between (forum) users and the OBD11 mother-ship, I'm not sure that "the post above yours" adds any further information to onur2006 question (or my questions). Again, with the greatest respect to you and without wanting to "shoot-the-messenger" - whilst it's great to have an official response from VOLTAS, users and prospective buyers remain completely in the dark about the impact of SFD on their purchase for MY20 & MY20+ VAG vehicles. Don I can understand you but Voltas already wrote what they're able to tell. There may be some more information but i don't think i'm allowed to share that here. I'm sorry that it currently feels like you're in the dark but i'm pretty sure they(voltas) have valid reasons for this.  The only thing we can do atm is to wait for more public information from voltas regarding SFD. Btw i know you're not intending any offense so all good  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2020 13:28:03 GMT
My concern is that VW will lock it down to the point that we won't even be able to scan for codes, or clear the CEL, which could require a paid visit to the dealer each and every time a CEL is triggered. deiehi: Thanks for your reply.
Like you, I'm not knowledgeable about what VAG intends with SFD - but there is thankfully at least some information in the public domain in respect of your stated concern.
Here's an extract from VW regarding SFD (I have applied bold to words):
- The protection requirement is limited to specific writing services (codings, adjustments, parametrisations) and routines. Normal reading services (e.g. readout of control unit event memories) will not be SFD-protected. The functions of data string downloading with boot loader data strings, flashing and/or update programming as well as flash data security are also not affected by SFD.
So - and again with the caveat that I'm extrapolating the current dearth of SFD information: it should still be possible to interrogate the Gateway module for the installed module list and their error events. I suspect that this means that scan reports will be available - I think And, I suspect (perhaps "hope" is a better word) that simple events like clearing the service reminder message will also be permitted - I think And I suspect/hope that clearing DTCs that result from faults on peripheral components will also be able to be possible (once the peripheral is fixed/replaced and assuming that the fix doesn't need a basic setting procedure to be completed)- I think
Don
I have no further information from OBD Team.
I have also heard from other members of this forum that they have been able to run scans but that not all control units showed.
So it feels like you can still run scans and in time it will be possible to code.
My personal interest's are in relation to:
The information that is passed back to VAG, If you have to get a token (regardless of how) I presume that VAG will be able to register the fact and if you have a warranty claim on the car they will be able to see you have made changes. Not saying that is what will happen just interested in how much information is going to be held and possible used in Warrenty claims.
Secondly if this is a real time system (and I have seen some talk of offline process for garages with broadband issues) then there is going to be a time lag whilst the information is passed from User to OBD11 to VAG to OBD11 Back to user, we are all using mobile or WIFI so may have an impact on performance at the startup stage.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 25, 2020 20:38:37 GMT
^^^testeronline: this might help in your understanding the basic steps for getting access to a module with SFD (it's from VW):
1. It is a prerequisite that the user is registered in the SFD IT back end and in the Dealer Portal (in future, the Group Retail Portal)
2. The user would like to carry out SFD-protected services on one or more SFD protected control units as part of a vehicle diagnosis.
3. The control unit reports that it is SFD-protected and asks for an activation token.
4. The vehicle diagnostic tester sends an activation request with the ID mark of the control unit and the desired scope to the SFD IT back end.
5. The SFD IT back end checks and authorizes the request and sends a signed activation token to the tester. The SFD IT back end logs the access (user ID, CU ID mark, time etc.).
6. The vehicle diagnostic tester sends the activation token to the control unit. The control unit checks the activation token and grants access to the relevant diagnostic object.
Don
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2020 21:47:04 GMT
Thanks don, yes i have that document and it looks like the VCP Solution is using the offline method in that document.
But as to my second issue its another issue where the Servers have to be sized / configured correctly for the volume of extra traffic.
It does not matter to me as I have never worried about warranty as my car has always been obviously modified and would not be covered anyway but this feels like VAG will now have the ability to see you have made changes.
Time will tell
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 11:00:49 GMT
Good morning, The grumpy old man AGAIN
Firstly sorry for double posting and feel free to mark my record accordingly but this lack of update is getting very tiresome.
Dev team you did state in your first reply that you had all the documentation, although in your second one you said you are still waiting for documentation (I am guessing this is to give you more info technical info). Whilst I appreciate this going to take some time it should be noted that VCP have already built a solution (and its been live for a while) to this using what looks like to me the offline model (where you get the code and copy it across to the application). Do you guys have any plans for this sort of solution as a short term fix. I know that you have been advised we are all waiting to be able to use this on the new cars and i appreciate that it wont be a 5 minute job but I do think that a regular update should not be difficult to provide and you did promise to let us know when you got the documentation which I would hope you have by now. Again I know you have been told and reminded but in my view your web site on supported vehicles implies very clearly that you support 2020 models for coding which you do not so this is false advertising so should be cleared up |
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Post by Thirsty on Aug 17, 2020 11:15:32 GMT
@testeronline I've already forwarded the problem with the false information on the site. They told me that they will take car of this. In this case it's ok to double post so no worrys  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2020 18:49:08 GMT
Thirsty This is not aimed at you, you do a great job for all us users and I personally appreciate your hard work However the OBD11 Team I am afraid need to start listening to the user community. Firstly they are still doing the 2020 cars can do stuff - which we know they cant
We still have no further update on SFD, i would point out having worked in large corporate clients IT Teams I can assure you that any good PM OR Program manager would be able to issue some form of communication to keep business / users happy with progress.
As a guy who has had to work on the front line (directly with users) the two worst things you can do are 1) LIE (You always get caught out) and 2) stay silent (the obd11 way) as people start to loose trust and belief very quickly.
end of moan
Still love the tool but we do need to fix the way you interact with users and please fix all the errors on your various websites.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 21, 2020 23:55:38 GMT
^^^ hmm........... very sage words indeed by tester - which is not unusual from such a valuable forum contributor !!! It's accepted theology (or rather, it should be) that truth in commercial communications with end users is fundamentally about the corporate value-set of the manufacturer and It should be driven more by corporate ethics than by the risk of being caught-out. I've also worked in commerce for many years and I'm well aware of the place of marketing in achieving the prime objective of any business - which is principally a return on the shareholder's investment. In today's environment however, there is an increasing awareness of the rights of consumers and the commercial objective (i.e. profit) is now very much linked to "brand reputation" (read - consumer satisfaction). Easily accessible communication vehicles like the net and forums similar to this facility are the breading ground for consumer views and I've no doubt that the current success of OBD11's existing brand reputation has been largely a result of product reviews on this medium (which of course is ultimately due to the quality of VOLTAS's products) BUT (and there is always a "but") - it's commercial madness to assume that today's consumers are fools!! The business world is littered with the corpses of those companies where product marketing and product reality don't align. It's just bad business practice and sloppy marketing often has other profound risk implications (legal?) for the corporation - and of course, also for consumers who act on incorrect information. My view is that OBD11 is a quality product and kudos to VOLTAS for their vision in developing the device. Please don't allow the success thus far (for both users and for VOLTAS) to be marred by the quality of OBD11's marketing about SFD!! Perhaps the VCP approach might also be worth considering for OBD11? VCP also haven't found an answer to SFD (notwithstanding claims to the contrary) - their devices recognize cars with SFD protocols and simply advise the user that the device is not compatible (see EDIT below). AND they market their approach accordingly so there is no consumer confusion. Until VOLTAS actually deliver their previously stated solution to SFD - perhaps this interim approach might be implemented - maybe?
Don
EDIT: just as an to how vcp handles SFD - vcsystem 8.7.4 (released 07/04/20) now "accommodates" SFD in the following manner:
Added SFD unlocking by pre-calculated token VW introduced a SFD (Schutz Fahrzeug Diagnose) in MQB2020 platform. To get access to adaptations / coding and even output checks, ECU has to be unlocked by special Token. Tokens can be currently obtained only by using offcial GeKo/partner company account. So, if you want to work with SFD -> go ahead and apply for access. There's currently NO OTHER WAY. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 16:46:33 GMT
I am not a fan of facebook but as can be seen by the below chat the 2020 issue needs somebody to put out a comment for new buyers.
And there are lots more with regards to all the bugs as well as 2020 not working.
We also seem to have a number of bugs at the moment (on top of the old ones) and then I see on twiter
Working in partnership with ETI - a trade association made up of Tool and Equipment companies representing all segments of the automotive repair industry - we can meet the needs of diverse industries and have better opportunities to develop the program for other car brands.
Can you please get a release that works for us all, allows 2020 cars, allows proper backups with correct data and if you know that stuff dont work (I know there are lots of Basic Settings that just dont work) then please be clear on the app and the web site so that we all know that.
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matt
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Post by matt on Aug 24, 2020 19:02:13 GMT
This has nothing to do with the SFD issues really, it's just another item that is highlighting a poorly run company. Bugs, bugs, bugs...no communication, poor support, bad management. They have been told so many times what needs to change and how to improve but it always falls on deaf ears. The project won't fail because its a bad idea but it will fail due to how it is managed.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 24, 2020 23:56:44 GMT
^^^^matt:Hi
Allow me to preface my response by saying that I have no financial connection and I have no affiliation whatsoever with VOLTAS that would otherwise temper my personal views as expressed on this forum. My position as "moderator" on this forum is purely a form of overly-generous (and really, undeserved) honorarium from OBD11 which attracts no payment at all. So, I write-here with no hidden agenda and without any need to pander to any corporate objective of the manufacturer. To be brutally honest, it matters nought to me if I'm struck-off this forum - my personal integrity matters much more than my status (or my existence) on this forum!!
So, with this statement of intent as background, I must agree with your general assertion that management decisions lie at the heart of ALL aspects of corporation performance. However, I'm not sure that it's in our best interest as users to conflate the SFD issue with VOLTAS's more general management of software bugs. Purely IMO or course, I believe that the two are entirely different - albeit, as I have said previously, both can be viewed as elements of OBD11's corporate value-set. This fact however doesn't address the issue of truth in marketing, which requires immediate attention - IMHO, of course. From what I understand about SFD (which admittedly ain't much), this is a unique problem facing ALL manufacturers of non-ODIS diagnostic devices. Again with the caveat that there isn't much information in the public domain - it appears to me from the outside looking-in that SFD is a real threat to the fundamental business model of third party diagnostic cable/dongle producers.
Now, each competing manufacturer appears to be managing this threat differently - but again as an uniformed outsider, the single advantage of OBD11 seems to be their much vaunted "official license with VW AG" . I have no idea what this facility means, or how (if at all) this license will be useful in providing a solution to SFD. But VOLTAS seems to think, and they have said publicly that it will useful. So, we as users can only be reassured by their statements - I guess!!
Separately, I believe is your other matter about software bugs and OBD11's corporate performance for what is in reality a routine Key-Performance-Indicator for ALL third party diagnostic producers. Every competing cable manufacturer has this exact same KPI and there ain't anything special about this task for OBD11. Don't get me wrong - I most certainly am not saying that we as users should not hold VOLTAS to account for their achievements (or lack there-of) in this important KPI. We most definitely should do this and I'm heartened by the fact that VOLTAS is funding a community forum like this that enable users to post-up bugs that they have experience as well as providing us a vehicle to discuss corporate performance issues.
I just think that the two issues are different - and that they should stay different to be addressed properly !!
Don
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matt
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Post by matt on Aug 25, 2020 11:17:40 GMT
I can appreciate that many aftermarket scantools will be facing SFD issues, I will be keeping a close eye on my Launch in particular as they have the ability to do full online coding of modules (Which OBD Eleven cannot) so must have some connection with VAG. The crux of this thread is not really whether it will or won't work its more about Voltas not making it clear that it does not work to consumers. This is similar to how they handle their one click changes in app (No detection or indication if it doesn't/can't work just credits gone).
I have a unique insight in that I am a professional mobile app developer and have worked on a few automotive related apps. The bugs that work their way in are unforgivable and points to little/no actual testing before release.
They have this forum which is great but they don't interact and seem to ignore all suggestions and long term bugs so whats the point of the forum? To let end users do their job for them?
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 25, 2020 22:53:49 GMT
I can appreciate that many aftermarket scantools will be facing SFD issues, I will be keeping a close eye on my Launch in particular as they have the ability to do full online coding of modules (Which OBD Eleven cannot) so must have some connection with VAG. ^^^Huh - "my Launch"? What is "my Launch"" and who are "they"? As I said, I'm not connected to OBD11, but I've always been mystified how VOLTAS verifies the accuracy of their one-click Apps - I NEVER use them, myself (the risks are too high IMO - and I prefer to have FULL CONTROL of any changes that are made to my cars).
In the very early days of OBD11's development, I assume that the code-cutters simply pulled the tweak-instruction from the net. This was an OK process because in general there was lots of discussion on the web about which tweaks worked and which didn't (and in what circumstances they worked and didn't work). But these days, it seems that anyone can suggest a one-click app by posting in a dedicated part of this forum and by describing the change steps. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for user participation - but this process assumes a lot about the knowledge of the person requesting the App, the veracity of the instruction set and the limits of application of the tweak ( i.e. to other models and to various equipment options within the same model).
One click Apps are a highly automated form of ODIS- guided functions and they are a distinguishing feature of VOLTAS's products. They are targeted to a growing niche sector of the market that seems to just want quick results without much understanding of the underlying principles of CAN based communications. Ain't nothing wrong with this - but the bushiness model does rely heavily on the quality of the App and in particular, the precondition testing before the App actually makes changes to the car's programming.
The big problem here is that VAG releases so many different models across every separate market on this fragile blue planet - and, with each of these models there are a massive array of equipment options. It simply isn't possible for VOLTAS to undertake in-house testing of their Apps in any meaningful way (i.e. using normal software release practices)
So- again as an outsider looking in, and faced with the dilemma described above, i assume VOLTAS has adopted a "distributed intelligence" business model for their one-click Apps whereby knowledge about the tweak is drawn from users. This approach solves the dilemma described above, but it creates other problems related to the quality of the user's information - IMO of course,
Don
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matt
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Post by matt on Aug 26, 2020 10:45:33 GMT
^^^Huh - "my Launch"? What is "my Launch"" and who are "they"? It simply isn't possible for VOLTAS to undertake in-house testing of their Apps in any meaningful way (i.e. using normal software release practices)
Launch are an aftermarket Scantool company for all makes and models and my Launch is my one of their tools (I have Autel, Launch, etc) If they cannot find a meaningful way to test the apps then they should not be making them. period. thats rule no 1 of software development. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2020 9:16:50 GMT
And they have now updated the web site  |
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 29, 2020 22:53:15 GMT
^^ ^tester: it seems you have succeeded - well done!! Thank you also to Thirsty who I suspect was also instrumental in affecting the change (he/she? is always working silently in the background - our "unsung hero"!!). Lastly, thanks to VOLTAS!
Don
PS: I updated my response (22 August 2020) above regarding how VCP now handles SFD -it's hardly a real solution for the enthusiast market sector and I suspect that the same approach won't work for OBD11 because users still need to get the tokens from VW - which needs a GeKo account meaning that tokens won't be issued easily and without cost - I reckon!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 23:35:14 GMT
Don Team effort but I agree with you Thirsty does a great job in the background as well as looking after the site.
VCP have a youtube video showing it in action and I totally agree this is not the way forward for average OBD11 User.
But I am still very interested to see
1/ If any changes made to car are passed back to VAG (Warranty issues) 2/ if in the end there is an extra cost to users to support SFD. 3/ What happens if there is a communication issue between Voltas and VW (You wont be able to code) as we have seen database and connection issues before. and just to add to this issue today on facebook
4/ Having just had a read on VWVORTEX I also wonder what the Right to Repair bills in the US will do to this technology
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Post by elpato on Sept 1, 2020 13:08:05 GMT
obd11 has essentially become a legacy product.
It is month 9 of 2020 and there are something like 4 million vw cars on the road that not supported (not sure on other brands).
You'd think the devs would be camped outside VW HQ by now, throwing hunger strikes and naked tv interviews about this.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Sept 1, 2020 21:44:43 GMT
You'd think the devs would be camped outside VW HQ by now, throwing hunger strikes and naked tv interviews about this. ^^^way too much information - thank you for leaving me that mental image in my already unstable mind!!  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 20:36:52 GMT
As an official Volkswagen partner, we can confirm that conversation regarding 2020 vehicle support is in progress and we are waiting for the documentation from Volkswagen AG. We can not commit to a formal release date, as this depends on a third party - Volkswagen AG. As soon as we will get any documentation we will officially inform all our community members. Stay tuned! Guys I am not expecting a quick delivery of the end solution as I am sure that VW have not yet built there end for third party connection.
However can we please have an update, you did say back in july you would confirm when you have the documentation even though you said at the start (see below) you had the documentation.
Mar 8, 2020 11:43:04 GMT 1 OBDeleven said:
Hi, I can confirm that OBDeleven and all other third party diagnostic tools will not work with latest vag vehicles. As we have official license with VW AG we already have all documentation how to integrate SFD into our diagnostic system, but there are still a lot of questions abouth that to start implementation process. Communication with them are vere slow so I can't provide any eta when we will be ready for that. I will provide more information when we get it explained by Volkswagen AG.
UPDATE Check out this thread if you want to see what is going on over at vcds forums.ross-tech.com/index.php?threads/22068/page-2#post-211586 some more info. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 16:19:53 GMT
Interesting Updates in the VCDS Thread re my query on Right to repair fight going on in the USA. From my perspective if OBD11 and VCDS Etc are able to connect to VW Servers allowing people to repair cars then in theory everybody is happy, in as much as you will be able to do what you did before just having to use online tool to get access. I have been looking at the John Deere stuff on Right to repair as in there case you can read the fault codes but if you have to do something then it has to go back to Dealer (my understanding and may be wrong). But again on the assumption we can eventually use OBD11 To sort stuff then all should be happy with the compromise (assuming this is a no cost connection  ). That then brings me back to my main interest - when you ask VW for a security key I presume that they will log that the car has been touched but as far as I can see there is no interaction to confirm what has been done (OBD11 Would be nice to confirm that) but i guess if a car goes in for a warranty claim then dealer can see who and when the car was touched. I am a little confused as it looks like not all control units are going to be locked down only the main ones dv52 (Australia) could you confirm your latest understanding for me please.
And no surprise I have seen a few threads recently talking about the guys who have built work around to component protections also working on solutions to SFD
My fav comment on this subject so far from @uwe on vcds forum
"I don't think so. How does real-time hacking work? Not by plugging a scan-tool into the car's diagnostic socket! It happens via the constantly network-connected "telematics" bad that the OEMs insist on pushing! If SFD existed to prevent real-time hacking, it would cordon off the telematics and infotainment system from the rest of the vehicle, not block access to diagnostic functions via the diagnostic port! "
Lastly would be nice to get a status update.
UPDATE
More and more vehicle manufacturers are protecting the coding and programming functions via the OBD interface from unauthorized access, for example via a multi-brand tester. Fiat was a pioneer in this area, and Daimler and Volkswagen (e.g. Golf 8) are currently following suit. All others will follow, because the EU Commission has obliged vehicle manufacturers with EU regulation 858/2018 to protect newly registered vehicle types from unauthorized access from September 2020 with protection of the vehicle electronics. The reason for this are more and more advanced driver assistance systems (ADAS for short) that are finding their way into cars. If they even drive independently in the future, every intervention in the vehicle software becomes a liability risk for the vehicle manufacturer. After all, after an accident, if in doubt, he has to answer in court forif its systems do not function properly and cause property damage or even personal injury. When many new driver assistance systems become mandatory across the EU in 2022 at the latest, things will get serious for manufacturers.
And Sorry but I forgot to mention that VCDS Now have there beta out (since mid Sept) Preliminary support for Mk.8 and MEB (ID.x) chassis cars.
... Auto-Scan should work now on these cars, as should most functions that read data, but SFD will limit changes in some control modules.
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Post by rickny on Oct 7, 2020 1:29:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2020 9:13:48 GMT
I also see that VW are doing the same connect.volkswagen-we.com/en/discover-we-connect/we-upgrade.htmlWe Upgrade functions for your Volkswagen at a glance Here is a first (non-binding) look at which selected We Upgrade functions can be added in principle to the vehicle of your choice. Your vehicle usually also needs to have the technical functions and hardware equipment required for We Upgrade. To find out which of these specific functions is actually available for your Volkswagen, please visit your in-car shop in the infotainment system. Here, the primary user can view the specific We Upgrade functions which are available for your vehicle. 
And my new fav comment from a German site.
VW will not really care whether or not they step on the feet of some leftover hobbyists with their new models. The development was foreseeable for a long time.
At almost 60, that's honestly a sausage to me, I don't buy a new car anyway. And what I have is still fun, even if I have to and want to rebuild something again.
UPDATE - 14/10/20
To avoid double posting I have updated my last post.
I have emailed caristaapp and got a response same day saying that at this time they don't have many customers with the new cars so have yet to start work on the the interface.
I have emailed Carley and got a response same day saying that currently these cars are not supported and they will start working on the in the second half of 2021 but as this is all new setup they could not give a time line when it would actually be released.
VCP As we know do have a work around however this is not for the average user as you do need access to a GEKO account which is not cheap or easy to get.
VCDS Have to my understanding a Beta release Beta 20.9.0
Preliminary support for Mk.8 and MEB (ID.x) chassis cars.
... Auto-Scan should work now on these cars, as should most functions that read data, but SFD will limit changes in some control modules.
Again my understanding (and happy to be proved wrong) is that you cant do anything to Control Unit 5F, 09 or 19 without the SFD Code.
OBD11 Support still have no update.
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Post by ramonster on Oct 20, 2020 3:26:46 GMT
Wow, not many customers with new cars so no work until next year, with no official public information saying so - BUT they were more than willing to sell the thing, and bear in mind their supported advice was not updated for a very long time after many customers bought.
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kenan
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Post by kenan on Oct 20, 2020 9:06:36 GMT
I check the supported models which writes very clear "2019- " so i thought it should work. But this is a big scam! They never say we don't support, just talking like politicians. I just bought a nextgen obdeleven device which is useless for me right now, my car Passat 2020 well equipped with SFD. This is a clear FRAUD!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 10:59:02 GMT
kenan you may be lucky. There is scant information around this change but the original document says "As of 2020 – beginning with the market entry of the MQB37W (Golf 8) – there will be a cross-brand introduction of the SFD procedure in order to provide Vehicle Diagnostic Protection." This looks like the impacted cars currently are Seat Leon MK4, Golf mk 8, Skoda Octavia 4 and Audi A3. On the same platform (according to wiki) is the Cupra Formentor (and Leon) and VW Caddy MK4 but I do not know if the older MQB Platforms are also included.
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kenan
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Post by kenan on Oct 20, 2020 11:28:57 GMT
Actually, i still wait the equipment to try. But the car is just delievered and it would be model 2021. Because the passat brand writing different (letters closer each other) and the climate has touch interface instead of rolling hw buttons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2020 8:07:42 GMT
spoke with support this morning and asked if the Passat had SFD and they confirmed it does not.
Edvinas, 09:04 AM
Passat does not have it yet.
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cjje
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Post by cjje on Oct 22, 2020 18:12:12 GMT
That sounds hopeful as far as I am concerned then. I have a MY21 Skoda Karoq being built this week, and have bought an OBDeleven device ready for it (to turn the Soundaktor off as well as other changes). I was concerned that I would also have bought an expensive paperweight, but it sounds as if it might still be usable. If it's not too much trouble, could you enquire whether the MY21 Skoda Karoqs have SFD? Many thanks.
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Post by Thirsty on Oct 22, 2020 18:23:09 GMT
cjje Keep in mind that they're working on the SFD implementation. This means OBDeleven may not work with SFD vehicles at the moment but it will work once the implementation is done.
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).