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Post by kfzeli on Aug 25, 2024 17:49:36 GMT
Hi Guys,
i´m also on the way to find a Solution to handle the new SFD2 in Model 2024 cars. And i found a working Solution. Bosch Esi(tronic) Evolution 2024/3 with KTS 560 a Licence for Diagnose, an Bosch Singlekey-ID + 2Factor Authentication to use Bosch SDA called Security Plattform, that support more Brands not only VAG.
We open an Audi A5 Sportback build 05/2024 and then we switched to VCDS and can to normal Systemscan, read all Systems and do some coding in Instrumentcluster. But at this time we didn´t find the adaption to deaktivate the new Speedlimit Warning.
regards from germany kfzeli
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 25, 2024 22:07:36 GMT
kfzeli : Hi and thanks for posting
OK interesting -however the combination Bosch equipment and Bosch licenses mentioned in your post is intended for professional workshops and the cost of this setup is well beyond the reach of diagnostic device users in the enthusiast market - which I suspect make-up the vast majority of those contributing to this forum topic.
If I'm reading your post correctly (my apology if not), you used the Bosch equipment/license to generate the SFD token and then you plugged the token into VCDS to access the modules into the Audi A5. As I've said elsewhere in this forum, the problem with VCDS is that it is NOT an integrated solution to even the early version of SFD because it cannot generate the necessary SFD token - meaning that users need to find a second way of opening these modules (unlike OBD11 users).
So, the "new" information in your post (for me, at least) is using the Bosch set-up to generate the SFD token instead of using the more-normal approach of a genuine GEKO account from VAG
If my understanding above is correct, using this method to gain "normal Systemscan, read all Systems" isn't extraordinary because these processes are simply reading module information - which shouldn't be difficult even for vehicles with SFD2
I'm not sure what you mean by "do some coding in Instrumentcluste" (which is the Dashboard module in OBD11 speak). It's not clear whether in claiming this coding success, the hex17 module was actually unlocked. More information about these changes would be useful.
Also, using the combination Bosch/VCDS method - were you able to open any other modules on the Audi as evidence by actual coding changes?
Don
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agilis
New Member
Just learned about SFD & SFD2 :(
Posts: 8
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Post by agilis on Aug 26, 2024 5:40:14 GMT
From what I gathered:
BOSCH ESI(Tronic) Evolution: ~€26,000
BOSCH KTS 560: ~€2,200
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Post by kfzeli on Aug 26, 2024 14:25:56 GMT
dv52 (Australia) Hi Don. In Bosch ESI tronic there is a function called car unlock, this is a simble click and the Bosch tool opens the Gateway so the normal communication with all the other systems is possible. Its the best way for me because i am not in the postition to get an legal GEKO Account in germany, it isn´t that easy. In this Audi A5 with locked Gateway you could only reach the gateway himself and you can see that some systems got fault codes, but you can not read the faultcodes all Systems but gateway are not reachable. This unlock with Bosch i guess open the complete car for about one hour like the normal sfd in other models like ID... in this time you can use all other Diagnistic tools to start working with this car. WE only look for some coding in the DASHBOARD :-) but we take a look around of 09, 46, 19 and 5F adress words, and i do an Backup of all Systems addaption channels with VCDS as .csv file. I only can do this test because some people in my company uses Bosch allraedy so there are no extra cost for testing and i got an Bosch Singlekey-ID allready. I hope we can do more testscenarois in the next time. Did you want me to do e spicific coding? agilisBosch Diagnstic is expensive if you do this as hobby. KTS 2500 EUR Bosch Diagnostic Licence is about 1000 EUR a year.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 26, 2024 22:45:24 GMT
kfzeli : Again, thanks for the information. I'm not familiar with Bosch EFi tronic, but it sounds like the "car unlock" facility enables the device to activate the CAN diagnostic bus on the car- for which the Gateway is the master module. And yes, SFD tokens are time limited - so the modules automatically re-lock after 90 minutes and a new token is needed. This limitation is explained in the official SFD document from VAG HEREIf the Bosch device is able to unlock the car, I assume that it can also access and code the modules without the need to use another diagnostic tool like VCDS. I assume that you are only using VCDS to generate the "Backup" (.CSV) files that you mention in your reply - which are called "adaptation channel maps", or "admaps" in VCDS speak. If so, I'm surprised that the Bosch tool can't produce similar database files - but again, I'm not familiar with Bosch! However, whilst VCDS has many disadvantages, I agree that their admap files are the very best in the diagnostic device industry (way better than the Backup files generated by OBD11)! If possible and if it doesn't breach any privacy matters for your company, can your post-up a copy of the admaps for this car (probably as a zip-file attachment in a new post)? I have an intellectual curiosity to see how these new SDF2 modules are programmed. I totally understand if it's not appropriate to provide the data-file.
Don
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Post by stoffle32 on Aug 28, 2024 11:47:41 GMT
So it seems VCP has made a step forward on there latest update.
Did try it but did not work fully?
From VCP: "Added support for unlocking SFD2 (End2End Protection) in UDS Manual Calibration panel
You Still need an online Token (VCP cannot do this)
In Order to use SFD2 you need:
-Red SFD Challenge using new SFD2 E2E
- Calculate token based on Challenge. Datarecord Id's and data you want to Write.
- go to UDS Manual edit, Press begin Sfd2 e2e
-Write Desired Recordss
-Press End SFD2 e2e
So I tried this, but confused about the UDS Manual Calibration Panel.
We got the token, read the challenge code but seems we missing the uds part before we can get the new code to unlock
I know this is not an OBD Solution but seems guys are making steps forward
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 28, 2024 21:23:04 GMT
stoffle32 : hmm.........very interesting, thanks for the information! Clearly the official dealer tool (ODIS) is fully SFD2 compliant- so it is possible to successfully unlock these modules at a practical level! Nevertheless and IMO, it's instructional to those complaining to the deities on the OBD11 mother-ship that the contributions to this thread indicate that ALL third-party diagnostic manufacturers appear to be facing similar problems (notwithstanding VOLTAS-IT's publicized "special" relationship with VAG group). Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT suggesting that the inability of competing diagnostic device manufacturers to solve the SFD2 problem means that OBD11 users should stop applying pressure on VOLTAS for a SFD2 solution as soon as possible - but it does put the size of the problem in proper perspective! Again, IMO - of course! Don
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Post by whataboutthis on Aug 28, 2024 21:40:47 GMT
dv52 (Australia) Don whilst I fully agree on the scale of the problem the big issue with OBD11 is that when there are issues (IOS Support, SFD, SFD2, SERVERS DOWN) instead of clear and updated information there is SILENCE. When I worked in IT to avoid having an angry mob (eg obd11 customers) moaning and bad mouthing the product you gave regular updates.
Even if its we are still working on it, they should be able to confirm if all cars are the same (eg can you see full list on some cars but not others) what control units are not impacted by SFD2 and therefore one click apps will work etc.
Not rocket science.
But here we are again waiting.
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Post by stoffle32 on Aug 29, 2024 6:39:13 GMT
I dont think Odis Have a full working solution yet, seems the only way is manual tokens not online locking. We tried odis and gets stuck in a loop on some modules were it says its unlocked but then when you try do an adjustment says its locked again or on the Vw's gives a coms issue. even though you can read it. it something in the new gateways not allowing the info flow (im not sure)
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Post by wauzzz on Aug 29, 2024 21:01:07 GMT
I'm also in the process of testing. We'll see what time will tell.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Aug 29, 2024 23:21:16 GMT
dv52 (Australia) Don whilst I fully agree on the scale of the problem the big issue with OBD11 is that when there are issues (IOS Support, SFD, SFD2, SERVERS DOWN) instead of clear and updated information there is SILENCE. When I worked in IT to avoid having an angry mob (eg obd11 customers) moaning and bad mouthing the product you gave regular updates.
Even if its we are still working on it, they should be able to confirm if all cars are the same (eg can you see full list on some cars but not others) what control units are not impacted by SFD2 and therefore one click apps will work etc.
Not rocket science.
But here we are again waiting.
Yes - I get what you are saying and I agree. Indeed, in an ideal world- the information flow from the deities on the OBD11 mother-ship would be more inclusive!
BUT (yes, there is always a "but"), every piece of additional data that VOLTAS places in the public domain about SFD2 is an added "commitment"! Meaning that despite any caveats that might accompany these statements, the information carries with it an added responsivity for veracity and meeting time-lines.
So, the truth is that more public statements by VOLTAS generates greater user expectations and it creates additional corporate accountability. Ain't nothing wrong with this - it's simply the way stuff works!
I guess that where there is reasonable surety that the additional information is correct, VOLTAS should be prepared to disclose more data. BUT (there's that word again), public disclosure is a corporate balancing activity with both benefits (mostly for users) and disadvantages (reputational risks for VOLTAS if commitments are not met).
Faced with this dynamic - is it at all surprising that VOLTAS chooses to adopt the "silence strategy" (as has every other competing diagnostic device manufacturer) until the way forward is better understood? Let's not forget that ultimately VOLTAS is driven by business imperatives - meaning that their obligation to users is secondary and user benefits ONLY make sense in the context of VOLTAS' primary accountability to shareholders!
And more importantly - it's a fact of commerce that the buyer market has a very short memory! As long as there is eventually a working SFD2 solution and if all competitors are in a similar position - I very much doubt that these problems will be remembered by users! As an instructional example of this principle, consider the same situation that existed for the first variant of SFD - how many users remember, or still care about those problems today? Not many - not any, I suggest!
Of course my preference (like yours) is for greater transparency - BUT (once more that "word") looking at the SFD issue from VOLTAS' perspective, I can see their dilemma!
Don
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Post by whataboutthis on Aug 30, 2024 8:28:01 GMT
Of course my preference (like yours) is for greater transparency - BUT (once more that "word") looking at the SFD issue from VOLTAS' perspective, I can see their dilemma!
Don
Greater transparency and having the sales website showing that they don't support these cars rather than showing there are One Click Apps available for a car which the help file system says wont work.
Anyway I will raise the issue when I have my one to one meeting with the research team who I guess are looking at what people want from OBD11.
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Post by Art1990 on Aug 31, 2024 16:44:15 GMT
I have noticed that on Vctool official website says SFD/SFD2 support. Interesting… does it really support SFD2 or not.
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Post by stoffle32 on Sept 2, 2024 5:24:47 GMT
when i asked vctool directly they dont. there are guys that have found a solution but its a hack it seems
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Sept 2, 2024 21:14:00 GMT
When the " Vctool official website says SFD/SFD2 support" (quite from Art1990 ) - I suspect that the term " support" was deliberately chosen by VCTool.
In the context of the website , "support" is a marketing word -it does NOT mean a working solution. If VCTool had a working solution for SFD2, I bet that the website would make a BIG song-and-dance about it!!
So, bottom line= ALL competing diagnostic device manufacturers appear to be roughly in the same position - speaks volumes about the nature of the SFD2 problem - and the likelihood of a fix soon!!!
Don
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Post by tihson on Sept 3, 2024 12:20:57 GMT
When the " Vctool official website says SFD/SFD2 support" (quite from Art1990 ) - I suspect that the term " support" was deliberately chosen by VCTool.
In the context of the website , "support" is a marketing word -it does NOT mean a working solution. If VCTool had a working solution for SFD2, I bet that the website would make a BIG song-and-dance about it!!
So, bottom line= ALL competing diagnostic device manufacturers appear to be roughly in the same position - speaks volumes about the nature of the SFD2 problem - and the likelihood of a fix soon!!!
Don
So Ive been following this topic for some time as, like many on here, Im eager for a dolution to this SFD2 problem.... After reading that VCTool "supports" SFD2, I decides to ask them about it and here is their responce " Hello, SFD2 has nothing to do with SFD(1) and works completely differently, so the concept of “SFD2 Unlock” is not applicable to it. In SFD2, a token is permission to write specific data defined in the token, meaning any data set (adaptations, datasets) you want to write to the control unit must be signed on the VAG server and only then written to the control unit. Access to data signing is available to a very small number of people, and each change is registered on VAG servers. For this reason, the cost of such requests is quite high. At the moment, VCTool fully supports working with the SFD2 system in manual mode only, so, you can gather the necessary data, but obtaining the token is the user's responsibility. We are working on an interim solution, "SFD2 Calculation on Demand", and we will announce the pricing and terms of service soon. Unfortunately, it's not possible to say when the automatic token calculation will be implemented (or if it will be)." Back to square one im afraid.... |
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Sept 3, 2024 22:22:06 GMT
tihson : Thanks for your effort and for posting-up the information. So, if I'm correctly interpreting the VCTool response - the difference between SFD1 and SFD2 for OBD11 appears to be: - for SFD1, the token to unlock modules is wielded from VAG via the VOLTAS servers to the end user
- for SFD2, the token to unlock modules must be provided (and authorized) to the user directly from the VAG servers!!
Wow!! This ain't a trivial problem - I suggest that no one with SFD2 holds their breath whilst waiting for a solution!! Don
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Post by whataboutthis on Sept 3, 2024 23:32:33 GMT
Happy to be proved wrong but I would have thought that VAG would want to get all the request's for SFD2 Via the OBD11 Servers and not on a request per user directly.
If it was a direct connection per user then VAG would have to setup accounts for each individual user whereas the current SFD1 interface the user accounts are with OBD11 (Granted all the information is passed to VAG) and then VAG only have one account to manage.
For me the more interesting part is unlike SFD1 which VAG only record you have requested to open the control unit in SFD2 It would appear you have to tell them what you are trying to do although happy I may have got that wrong.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Sept 4, 2024 0:17:28 GMT
Happy to be proved wrong but I would have thought that VAG would want to get all the request's for SFD2 Via the OBD11 Servers and not on a request per user directly. If it was a direct connection per user then VAG would have to setup accounts for each individual user whereas the current SFD1 interface the user accounts are with OBD11 (Granted all the information is passed to VAG) and then VAG only have one account to manage. hmm............... maybe you are correct? But I very much doubt that in designing their processes, a world conglomerate like VAG gives the slightest thought to the needs of third party manufacturers of diagnostic devices - as is evidenced in the SFD2 matter.
The requirement that VAG knows the identity of each person that requests a token and that the individual "must be signed on the VAG server" is the normal GEKO account process - ain't nothing new about this! It's unfortunate that SDF2 shares the same TLA as SFD1 in its name because the two have totally different objectives - SFD2 is about UNECE which focuses on cyber security (yes, and also software update).
The risk for VAG from cyber security is greater for live OTA connections on the latest release models- so I'm not surprised that VAG has designed a more strict access protocol for releasing tokens!
I don't know the amount of revenue that VAG gets for it's SFD1 arrangement with OBD11 - but it has to be infinitesimally small compared to the income that it receives from selling SFD2 cars world wide!! So, and as I say, I don't believe that VAG cares one-iota about the needs of diagnostic device users and even if VAG does care - I'm absolutely certain that VAG is NOT willing to compromise their own cyber security risks for ease of coding access by diagnostic device users in the enthusiast market!
Don
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Post by wauzzz on Sept 4, 2024 18:57:31 GMT
I can only say that the first steps with SFD2 coding were made successfully. It is much more difficult than some people think. If anyone needs to code something in their car, please let me know
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agilis
New Member
Just learned about SFD & SFD2 :(
Posts: 8
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Post by agilis on Sept 4, 2024 22:39:51 GMT
dv52 (Australia) Et. al. I have a contact that works for a company that works directly with ODIS. They confirmed to me that SFD2 can only be unlocked by Volkswagen AG. The company has contacts at Volkswagen AG but they have no way to access SFD2. I see no solution for SFD2 on the Horizon. 
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Post by wauzzz on Sept 5, 2024 16:16:48 GMT
Tell your "contact" not to speak if he doesn't know what he's talking about. SFD2 can be generated by all those who have the permissions to do so on GRP and I assure you that many people outside the VW circle have these permissions
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Sept 5, 2024 21:47:30 GMT
dv52 (Australia) Et. al. I have a contact that works for a company that works directly with ODIS. They confirmed to me that SFD2 can only be unlocked by Volkswagen AG. The company has contacts at Volkswagen AG but they have no way to access SFD2. I see no solution for SFD2 on the Horizon. agilis : thanks for the information - interesting to have confirmation from your ODIS contact! The advice aligns with the rest of the statements that were made before your post - so the problems appear to be the same as those faced by OBD11! Tell your "contact" not to speak if he doesn't know what he's talking about. wauzzz : Hi.
Arrhh......... the aggressive response!!! Mercifully we don't see this approach often on the forum - generally most responses in this place respect the views of other forum colleagues even though they might not agree with what's being said!
That's why forums like this exist - so we can have informed conversations about differing views in a respectful manner!
......................If anyone needs to code something in their car, please let me know Yes, some folk don't want to share information on the forum, preferring instead to make gratuitous comments only - that's their right! But again, generally that's not what happens - the purpose of forums is to share information!
SFD2 can be generated by all those who have the permissions to do so on GRP and I assure you that many people outside the VW circle have these permissions I do not believe that anyone here is suggesting that "those who have the permissions to do so on GRP" cannot generate SFD2 tokens!. Clearly even for those "outside the VW circle", if the individuals "have the permission to do so" - of course, access to SFD2 tokens is possible!!
The general debate on this thread is about how (or if) the OEM-official permission process for SFD2 can be extended to the non-OEM facilities on third-party diagnostic devices (like OBD11, VCTools, VCDS, VCP etc) - as VAG has allowed for SFD?
Don
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Post by wauzzz on Sept 6, 2024 4:36:21 GMT
Perhaps my answer sounds aggressive, it was not my intention to write vulgarly. it's just that most companies that are subcontractors for VAG are brainwashed by VW and they always talk and will continue to talk nonsense that VAG told them. You could say it this way: "as VW sings to them, they dance". It's the same with VW dealers, whatever the importer tells them, they do.
Until someone cracks the Rsa sha hash, none of them will be able to implement SFD2 on their device (Vctool, VCP etc)
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Post by whataboutthis on Sept 18, 2024 1:39:19 GMT
Just to add to this section, I ran a check on the obd11 website and noticed the Terms and Conditions have been updated although the update date has not (already raised with support) The section that seems to have changed is listed below
38. The Terms of use of the Volkswagen Group's SFD service can be accessed here. We will inform you each time there is a change in the terms of use of the Volkswagen Group's SFD service and ask for your consent to the changed terms. The access to the SFD service and any associated functionalities are provided directly by Volkswagen Group. As such, any disruption or malfunction of the SFD service, including, but not limited to, issues with access, connectivity, or functionality, may impact the performance of the Services. OBDeleven, UAB disclaims all liability for any interruptions, limitations, or failures in its Services that result from issues related to the SFD service, as outlined above. You acknowledge and agree that OBDeleven, UAB is not responsible for any consequences arising from the malfunction or unavailability of the SFD service.
Previously it was
38. The Terms of use of the Volkswagen Group's
SFD service can be accessed HERE. We will inform you each time there is a
change in the terms of use of the Volkswagen Group's SFD service and ask
for your consent to the changed terms.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Sept 18, 2024 9:38:08 GMT
whataboutthis : Again, thanks for your information - I must admit that I seldom if ever read OBD11's T's-&-C's (it's my failure).
Anyway I found your extracts interesting (as usual) and your last expose' was more than a tad surprising. What does OBD11 UAB mean by " and ask for your consent to the changed terms"? This doesn't make sense and it's entirely impractical as a commercial mechanism! I was a commercial contract negotiator in a previous life and I can categorically confirm that the PRIME requirement when sitting opposite a contract counterpart trying to arbitrate changes to T's-and-C's is the authority to make decisions!!
OBD11's undertaking to "seek your consent" sounds very inclusive and nice - but how does it work in practice? I assume the term "your" means you, me and every user that has purchased a diagnostic device! I don't know what this number is - but it has to absolutely ginormous and it has to include folk on nearly every corner of this fragile blue planet !!
How can OBD11 UAG engage in negotiations with a multinational conglomerate like VAG if it has to tell the contract counter-party that before agreeing to any changes - it must ask for the consent of its users? Clearly I'm missing something ?
Don
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Post by whataboutthis on Sept 18, 2024 13:28:18 GMT
I read them a long time ago but these days I just have online tools that confirm changes.
The bit that always makes me laugh is they make changes to the T & C and they have a LAST UPDATED DATE which they don't update very often but after pointing it out they now have well done OBD11.
With regards to your questions they will post up somewhere in the T & C a notification that VW Terms have changed and if you use the system then you have consented that's how i read the setup. However as with all T & C nobody reads them so its a cop out and I look at them at it is one of the first places they post that minimum operating system version has changed.
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Post by Art1990 on Sept 19, 2024 11:49:43 GMT
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Post by whataboutthis on Sept 19, 2024 21:47:27 GMT
Afraid that has been around for a while, its still true (As they need to fix it to sell more units) but so far no news I am afraid.
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Post by stoffle32 on Sept 20, 2024 10:33:23 GMT
Just remember even VAG Group is having trouble with SFD2, i think the software was developed outside of VW or by there new Software group they created, and odis they just cant get it right to actually work together. Once this is done i think will be easier for 3rd parties to get a solution. there are some already and have tried
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