brkica
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Post by brkica on Jul 17, 2024 15:13:30 GMT
Does anybody know if interior inclination sensor and basic alarm is a SWAP feature. I retrofited and coded the sensor with no errors. But I have a persistant error for the syren "Implausible signal". Everything is wired correctly and I tried two syrens. Albeit used, but what is the chance that both are broken?
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Post by blizzard60 on Jul 18, 2024 5:20:28 GMT
I do not believe it is, I have retrofit the IRU with DWA siren, and have Kessy from factory. No SWaP needed, which I was really surprised about. You are saying you have the basic H8 horn (2 wire)? I’m sorry I’m just missing what you mean by “basic alarm”.
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brkica
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Post by brkica on Jul 18, 2024 11:40:42 GMT
Hi,
no, my syren is 3 wire sounder (5Q0951605B). Today, I actually ordered a brand new syren from the dealer for an eyewatering 240 euro and I hope it will resolve the issue.
Basic alarm is the DWA with IRUE. There is another that besided DWA also has sensors on each corner of the car. I believe this advanced alarm is SWaP.
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Post by blizzard60 on Jul 18, 2024 14:50:04 GMT
Hi, no, my syren is 3 wire sounder (5Q0951605B). Today, I actually ordered a brand new syren from the dealer for an eyewatering 240 euro and I hope it will resolve the issue. Basic alarm is the DWA with IRUE. There is another that besided DWA also has sensors on each corner of the car. I believe this advanced alarm is SWaP. Ah, I see. The anti-theft modules 812X. My car does have that from factory. |
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Post by paneuropean on Jul 19, 2024 0:49:28 GMT
Is it possible that an additional part (an inclination sensor of some kind, or an interior monitoring sensor of some kind) is required to enable interior monitoring?
I'm not familiar with this feature on the MK8 series, but I do know that on the MK7, little motion sensors were fitted inside the overhead console on vehicle equipped with interior monitoring. This option was never offered in North America, so all of our MK7s here had empty spaces behind the little grilles where the interior monitoring sensors would have been fitted.
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Post by blizzard60 on Jul 19, 2024 3:52:49 GMT
Is it possible that an additional part (an inclination sensor of some kind, or an interior monitoring sensor of some kind) is required to enable interior monitoring? I'm not familiar with this feature on the MK8 series, but I do know that on the MK7, little motion sensors were fitted inside the overhead console on vehicle equipped with interior monitoring. This option was never offered in North America, so all of our MK7s here had empty spaces behind the little grilles where the interior monitoring sensors would have been fitted. Hey paneuropean, that’s exactly what brkica is saying. He’s installed the IRU (interior monitoring sensors) and has tried 2 DWA sirens and both are throwing the fault. The sensors are exactly where you described. In fact the sensor is still a 5Q0 MK7 part number if I remember correctly. |
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brkica
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Post by brkica on Jul 19, 2024 6:23:16 GMT
Hi, yes, I installed the tilt sensor in the center console. When the car is locked and I trip the sensor, the blinkers start blinking, but there is no syren sound. This suggests that the DWA is working as intended and that the problem is the syren. But I am puzzled why two used syrens did not work. Well, maybe it is just bad luck. The syrens have LiMH batteries inside and if they cannot hold charge anymore, maybe that's the reason why they don't work. I wired the syren to the LIN bus (T46b/31) per wiring diagram. Can you confirm that this is how you wired?
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 20, 2024 0:08:44 GMT
Hmm...... interesting problem!!! As I understand the wiring diagram for the DWA on a mk8, the Anti-theft alarm sensor (G578) and the 3 x pin alarm horn (H12) are both LIN slaves to the master LIN module @ address 09 (central electrics). It seems strange if the "advanced DWA" needs SWAP to partially work by operating the turn-signal lights! With absolutely no offense intended to brkica , generally SWAP devices are binary - they either have the correct license (in which case, they work), or they don't (in which case they don't work). These are the adaptation channels in the BCM for a mk8 related to DWA (Diebstahlschutz):
Diebstahlschutz Schnittstelle (Anti-theft interface)
- DWA_HSB_HSK_ueberwachung_aktiv (DWA_HSB_HSK_monitoring_active)
- DWA_mit_Einfachhorn (DWA_with_single_horn)
- DWA_mit_NGS (DWA_with_NGS)
- DWA_ohne_Thatcham (DWA_without_Thatcham)
- DWA_Scheinwerferueberwachung_aktiv (DWA_headlight_monitoring_active)
- DWA_verbaut (DWA_installed)
- IRUE_NGS_Deaktivierung_via_MMI (IRUE_NGS_deactivation_via_MMI)
- Irue_verbaut (Irue_installed)
- Sirene_alarmzahl (Siren_alarm_number)
- Verbau_Deaktivierungstaster_DWA_Sensor (Installation_deactivation_button_DWA_sensor)
- Anti theft blinkers by inter. door handle activ. (Anti theft blinkers by inter. door handle activ.)
Diebstahlschutz.Modulsoftware (Theft protection.Module software)
- blank [value "active"/"not active"]
- Akustischer Alarm ueber Hupe (Acoustic alarm via horn)
- Anhaengerueberwachung_aktiv (Trailer_monitoring_active)
- beeptime (beeptime)
- dwa_alarm_ton (dwa_alarm_tone)
- DWA_campermode (DWA_camper_mode)
- DWA_Verdeckoeffnungsueberwachung_aktiv (DWA_roof_opening_monitoring_active)
- IRUE_NGS_bewusst_entschaerfen (IRUE_NGS_consciously_defuse)
Note: NGS=NeiGungsSensor=Tilt sensor
So, on a mk8, it seems that there are 2 x separate "Parent" adaptation channel groups for DWA (which is different to the mk7/mk7.5 set-up): a group for hardware and a group for software
brkica : when you say " I retrofited and coded the sensor with no errors" - what exactly do you mean in regards to the NGS entries in my table above?
Don
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Post by paneuropean on Jul 21, 2024 19:21:53 GMT
The sirens have LiMH batteries inside and if they cannot hold charge anymore, maybe that's the reason why they don't work. The siren has a small battery inside it to ensure that the warning noise that the siren makes will continue to sound even if thieves disconnect the main battery of the car. I doubt that a dead battery inside the siren would prevent the whole system from working. Years ago, I owned another VW product (2004 W12 Phaeton) that also had a siren with an internal battery. I kept that car for 10 years, probably long enough for the little battery in the siren to fail, but the anti-theft warning system (including interior monitoring & tilt sensing) still worked the day I sold the car. |
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brkica
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Post by brkica on Jul 22, 2024 18:58:37 GMT
I can confirm that changing of the syren did not resolve the issue.
Still no sound when the alarm is tripped or when locking/unlocking.
Any ideas are welcome. I rechecked the wiring (all wires have continuity and are pinned properly) and the BCM dataset (I have all the datablocks that cars with DWA also have). Coding is also okay.
The syren does not comunicate with the BCM. Is there a way to relearn all the LIN addresses of the modules to the BCM? I assume the LIN master on the BCM does not recognize the LIN address of the syren (slave).
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 22, 2024 23:40:37 GMT
brkica : When you say " Still no sound when the alarm is tripped or when locking/unlocking" - do you mean that the new DWA-horn does not work at all? If so, maybe check the health of the LIN signal on the new horn. This is the set-up for the horn on a mk8: I'm not sure how familiar you are with LIN theory, so I apologize in advance if you already know this stuff - but LIN communications is a "recessive" protocol, which means that the LIN master (J519) holds the blue/white wire (above) "high" in the wait-state.
Therefore, if no message is being transmitted on the LIN data bus, the voltage on the data bus wire is roughly equivalent to battery voltage. And in the alternative state for an active LIN message, the blue/white wire is connected to earth whenever a dominant bit is being sent by the transceiver in the LIN slave device (H12). It's possible to use the 2 x conditions above to test the health of the LIN system like this: - Grab a digital multi-meter and set the dial to 20V DC full scale. Back-probe the meter-leads to pin #1 & pin #2 on H12
- Disconnect the power-supply to pin #3 on H12 (maybe at pin #11 on TIUL). Measure Volts - the reading should be close to battery rail voltage because the LIN master is in the wait-state (since the LIN slave is disabled)
- Restore the power supply to H12. Measure Volts - the reading should fall because of the dominant bits in the LIN slave messages.
Of course the amount of the differential in the Voltage readings will depend on the number of dominant bits in the LIN slave messages AND it will also depend-on the frequency response of the digital multi-meter - which probably won't be good! But this doesn't matter because you are only testing if there is a differential!
Also, I'm not sure about the specifics of the Central Electrics module on this car - but you could go to Output tests and Live data options on the OBD11 screen and search for DWA entries.
Don
PS: AFAIK, there is no method "to relearn all the LIN addresses of the modules to the BCM"! Maybe check Basic settings on the BCM screen
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brkica
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Post by brkica on Jul 23, 2024 13:22:30 GMT
Hi guys, thank you for sharing your oppinions and suggestions. They were very useful.  I found the issue today. My BCM doesn't have LIN2 bus to connect the syren to. There is physically no pin T46b/31 on it. I guess I first need to retrofit a newer BCM. Will be fun, considering the pitfalls of component protection, lack of parametrization abilty via ODIS (not suported HW for the VIN) and generally price as the module has to be new (due to CP)... What a sh*t show, I gues I've got a BCM from the COVID era (2020-2021) where chip shortage forced the manufacturers to cut down on features. What is weird and what left me clueless for so long is that software-wise I am able to code something that physically isn't supported. If this is not the finest german engineering, I don't know what is. |
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Post by paneuropean on Jul 24, 2024 23:04:43 GMT
Very interesting - and very observant of you - to mention all of the gymnastics that took place during the COVID era when auto manufacturers were up against the chip shortage and had to figure out all sorts of creative, "off the books" methods to keep production going.
I would not criticize VW for the situation you are in (the ability to code a feature that is not supported by the hardware). Instead I am almost tempted to offer a "tip of the hat" to VW for developing a workaround that enabled them to keep shipping vehicles during the chip shortage.
I am going to guess that there are a lot more "undocumented workarounds" in software out there that we don't know about. It is unlikely that VW will ever document what was done, because their responsibility ended with making sure that the features installed on the vehicle worked when the vehicle rolled off the end of the assembly line.
One thing is for sure, it ain't like the old days 20 years ago when it was possible to fully document every function and every capability of all the controllers in a vehicle. Those days are gone...
Michael
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 24, 2024 23:42:05 GMT
I found the issue today.......................... Well done!! This thread will be a valuable resource for others attempting the same task! What is weird and what left me clueless for so long is that software-wise I am able to code something that physically isn't supported. If this is not the finest german engineering, I don't know what is.F hmm.........I've no doubt that the reason for this problem was a surprise - but is it really "weird"? Remember that these cars were never designed with third-party diagnostic devices in mind!!
I suspect when the deities on the VW mother-ship designed the coding limitations of these modules - they assume that the ONLY environment that coding will happen is in their official dealerships and/or their authorized workshops. So, for this particular exercise - I suspect that there is a step in the official "guided function" that checks the central electrics module part number for compatibility with a high-end alarm-horn!
Don
PS: where cars are "protected" by SFD - do modules also have CP? Doesn't seem to be a need for both?
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Post by blizzard60 on Jul 25, 2024 8:29:21 GMT
Hey brkica, I’m so sorry, I read your post about ordering a new siren before going away, and I totally forgot to come back and check out the results. Man, that’s unbelievably unlucky. I actually can’t believe it, because my car, which is a Canadian market car, absolutely has the LIN bus as my siren sounds as you’d expect it would after this retrofit. When does VW ever give us features in North America that aren’t even needed, but in Europe, where the option exists, it’s not there? My only thought would be that sometimes the replacement BCMs are all one P/N and it’s just the replacement part test plan that activates the features. I haven’t checked for a MK8 though. If that were the case, you could purchase the new BCM, have a dealer run the replacement module test plan, then continue with your retrofit. |
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Post by paneuropean on Jul 27, 2024 22:26:23 GMT
...I suspect when the deities on the VW mother-ship designed the coding limitations of these modules - they assume that the ONLY environment that coding will happen is in their official dealerships and/or their authorized workshops. I'll narrow your theory down further, because I suspect that when VW designed the coding limitations, firmware, datasets, etc. of the controllers on the current generation of vehicles they assumed that at least 90% of the coding would be done once and once only at the end of the production line, and then never touched again by dealerships or authorized workshops. Michael |
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brkica
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Post by brkica on Jul 28, 2024 6:28:31 GMT
I suspect when the deities on the VW mother-ship designed the coding limitations of these modules - they assume that the ONLY environment that coding will happen is in their official dealerships and/or their authorized workshops. So, for this particular exercise - I suspect that there is a step in the official "guided function" that checks the central electrics module part number for compatibility with a high-end alarm-horn! I assume you are completely right. VW uses ODIS extensively to ensure that only supported parts are installed in the cars. The parts compatibility check is integrated into every module exchange test plan. PS: where cars are "protected" by SFD - do modules also have CP? Doesn't seem to be a need for both? Not every SFD-protected module has CP. I retrofitted 4B which is SFD-protected module but not protected with CP. On the other side, you have the side radars with CP, but not SFD. Generally, vital components, components where VW makes a lot of money by selling FEC codes or easy-to-steal modules are CP protected. It brings peace of mind knowing that nobody will steal for example my radars or my entertainment unit (which are easy to steal) because they cannot be used on other cars. SFD on the other hand is used on modules where 3rd parties are to be prevented from introducing coding changes due to safety reasons, which I fully embrace. For example, no 3rd party should ever be able to make coding changes to the ABS (for the safety of everyone on the road). Especially not in an environment where bits are not annotated... Hey brkica, I’m so sorry, I read your post about ordering a new siren before going away, and I totally forgot to come back and check out the results. Man, that’s unbelievably unlucky. I actually can’t believe it, because my car, which is a Canadian market car, absolutely has the LIN bus as my siren sounds as you’d expect it would after this retrofit. When does VW ever give us features in North America that aren’t even needed, but in Europe, where the option exists, it’s not there? My only thought would be that sometimes the replacement BCMs are all one P/N and it’s just the replacement part test plan that activates the features. I haven’t checked for a MK8 though. If that were the case, you could purchase the new BCM, have a dealer run the replacement module test plan, then continue with your retrofit. Well, shit happens. If everything would go according to plan, retrofits would be boring.  I will change the BCM and then make the necessary adaptations. But, I am on my own as the dealer won't touch a retrofit part even with a 10-foot-long stick. Very interesting - and very observant of you - to mention all of the gymnastics that took place during the COVID era when auto manufacturers were up against the chip shortage and had to figure out all sorts of creative, "off the books" methods to keep production going. I would not criticize VW for the situation you are in (the ability to code a feature that is not supported by the hardware). Instead I am almost tempted to offer a "tip of the hat" to VW for developing a workaround that enabled them to keep shipping vehicles during the chip shortage. I am going to guess that there are a lot more "undocumented workarounds" in software out there that we don't know about. It is unlikely that VW will ever document what was done, because their responsibility ended with making sure that the features installed on the vehicle worked when the vehicle rolled off the end of the assembly line. One thing is for sure, it ain't like the old days 20 years ago when it was possible to fully document every function and every capability of all the controllers in a vehicle. Those days are gone... You are completely right, most of these "COVID changes" were not annotated by manufacturers. I think there will be a lot of market disruptions when these COVID cars (and their parts) enter the second-hand market. These changes were needed then to keep the production up, but they had to be annotated to the specific VIN. Everything else just cries out for problems. |
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 28, 2024 22:57:17 GMT
dv52 (Australia) Not every SFD-protected module has CP. I retrofitted 4B which is SFD-protected module but not protected with CP. On the other side, you have the side radars with CP, but not SFD. Generally, vital components, components where VW makes a lot of money by selling FEC codes or easy-to-steal modules are CP protected. It brings peace of mind knowing that nobody will steal for example my radars or my entertainment unit (which are easy to steal) because they cannot be used on other cars. SFD on the other hand is used on modules where 3rd parties are to be prevented from introducing coding changes due to safety reasons, which I fully embrace. For example, no 3rd party should ever be able to make coding changes to the ABS (for the safety of everyone on the road). Especially not in an environment where bits are not annotated... hmm....... thanks for the reply.
My take on those cars that have SFD and CP is fairly close to your explanation. However, based on experience with earlier MQB platform vehicles - I have a slightly different and a more conspiratorial reaction to the direction that VAG is now taking!
First, I understand your words about CP being focused on the black market trade in stolen parts and this is basically the marketing justification for the function by the VAG Group.
Incidentally, I'm not entirely sure that CP "brings peace of mind knowing that nobody will steal for example my radars or my entertainment unit (which are easy to steal) because they cannot be used on other cars". Yes, professional thieves know about CP and likely CP will discourage the theft of these car - but the vast majority of easy-to-access modules are taken by opportunistic thieves that often aren't aware of CP!
Anyhow, according to a VW Self Study Program "CP is designed to prevent any unauthorized replacement of components". I emphasize the term "unauthorized" because it is a delightfully vague word and it can be interpreted as applying to the black market trade in stolen parts. However, the term "unauthorized" can have a much broader meaning!
Please don't take offense because none is intended - but it may just be coincidental that another outcome of CP is that it embeds dealerships into the task of replacing key modules for the life-cycle of the vehicle. Now, I'm not sure of the actual number of modules that are identified as stolen in the CP process across the world - but I would bet that it is an infinitesimally small proportion of the total quantity of key-modules that are now necessarily changed by dealerships because of CP!
So, maybe the REAL reason for implementing CP might have been to enhance the value of dealerships thereby increasing the return-on-investment for VAG shareholders - perhaps?
As for SFD, my view is that it replaces the previous mechanism called the module "Security Code" - being the 5 x digit number that originally was known only within the VAG environment but which increasingly leaked into the public domain.
Before SFD was introduced, there were industry rumors that because module security codes could be found using modern force-polling techniques (VCP has a specific function for discovering security codes) and because there were so many security codes already revealed - that VAG would introduce a 6 x digit security code.
Of course it's a historic fact that 6 x digit security codes were never introduced - instead, VAG implemented SFD which is a far more severe security mechanism that impacts the "right-to-service" of vehicle owners! Isn't it also interesting that SFD also has the effect of enhancing VAG shareholders' return-on-investment?
So, when looking for an explanation for why a global conglomerate like VAG does anything, my approach is ALWAYS to go back to the fundamentals of commerce. This approach invariably distills the question to a single motivation, profit!! There ain't nothing wrong with profit enhancement strategies (they are a fact-of-life in the modern world) - but they shouldn't be either underestimated, or forgotten!!
Again, no offense intended!!
Don
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Post by paneuropean on Jul 30, 2024 0:14:42 GMT
So, maybe the REAL reason for implementing CP might have been to enhance the value of dealerships thereby increasing the return-on-investment for VAG shareholders - perhaps? Hi Don: Although increased ROI for investors might be a side benefit arising from implementation of component protection, I'm not cynical enough to believe that it was the primary reason. I'm going to guess that the primary reason for implementing CP (along with SFD) was to mitigate risk arising from amateur modifications that could result in mis-matched or incompatible components causing unexpected and unsafe operating conditions to arise. This was never a concern before vehicle manufacturers began introducing autonomous operations such as automated lane change, automated emergency braking, adaptive cruise control, etc., but it is, I think, a a very serious concern now that the vehicles are allowed to "make their own operational decisions". Michael |
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 30, 2024 21:26:31 GMT
Michael
I respect and envy your beliefs about what motivates global conglomerates and you may be correct - I hope that you are correct, but I suspect that if your are, VAG's concerns are consequential (and secondary) to the ROI imperative.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Board members are psychopaths - I'm simply suggesting that EVERY (capital letters for emphasis) strategic decision (like SFD) that a company as large as VAG makes is firmly rooted in the fundamentals of commerce - which are self serving (nothing wrong with that)!
Yes, the benefits of SFD can be interpreted as you describe, or they can be legitimately described as being a deterrent against the black market trade in stolen parts - but I suggest again that these are NOT the reason for the change in strategic direction - IMO of course!!
Don
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I will change the BCM and then make the necessary adaptations. But, I am on my own as the dealer won't touch a retrofit part even with a 10-foot-long stick.