marcp
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Post by marcp on Dec 9, 2023 20:45:45 GMT
Hello - new member here. Got a used 2010 VW Golf. Randomly stalls with no warning. Engine warm. Stalls when car comes to a stop. No check engine light or codes whatsoever. Car can be hard to restart at first. Starts after a few tries but stalls again as soon as car is put into drive but not, curiously, when put into reverse... After a few minutes and other tries, ends up driving away. In the next two minutes, car "half stalls" a few times but then runs normally for the next two days to two weeks, then the problems comes again. Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Marc
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danm
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Post by danm on Dec 19, 2023 13:21:14 GMT
No codes A fuel starvation problem. 14 years and a really dirty fuel filter. Loose wiring at the battery posts. How many miles ?
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danm
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Post by danm on Dec 19, 2023 13:48:52 GMT
Also. Check that fuse #15 is NOT loose in its holder. There was a vw recall about it.
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 1, 2024 0:50:23 GMT
Hello Danm,
Thanks for your insights, I'll talk to my mechanic about them. I'll check the fuse myself and my mechanic is also suppose to check much of the wiring a bit more carefully after the holiday break. I read many threads about a defective fuel pump and talked to my mechanic about it and he thinks that the car would most likely "sputter" if it was a fuel starvation issue and not just die completely and instantly but what you suggest is still worth a look in my opinion.
Also, it's a bit long, but here's a message I sent to my mechanic with more details about some observations of mine, while trying to make this otherwise good car function a few days ago.
I drove the Golf around for approximately 25 minutes with no problems whatsoever.
After getting back to your garage and backing up in "its" spot, I tried a few times to go forward and it stalled repeatedly. However, once it had moved forward and stalled, there was never any problem backing it up. It never stalled when backing up, even when I backed up rather quickly.
I then tried about 10 times to move forward and then back up and it almost always stalled when moving forward but not always in the same way.
Out of the approximately 10 times I tried this, about 50% of the stalls were the same as last time, that is, the car starting and revving without a problem (in neutral) after having stalled, then still not stalling when I put it in drive and then, when I press the gas while in drive, a very short spike in rpm, car moves forward just a bit and then quickly stalls. BTW, when it stalls, the car won't start if I just leave the key in the "on" position and all the "dash lights" (that are normally on when you put the key to on) are off - as mentioned, only the battery light is on. To start the car after it stalls, I have to cycle the key off then back on again and then all the lights come on as usual and it starts without a problem.
It got a little weirder during the other 50% of stalls...
On one occasion, it stalled as soon as I put it in drive, without having pressed the gas at all. Once, after pressing the gas, it moved forward in "jerks" since it "half stalled" two or three times, but this time, **all** of the dash lights turned off (and then just as quickly back on) at the same time it was stalling in jerks. On another occurrence, just after this last one, it did two spikes in rpm followed by two half stalls and moving forward in jerks, but this time, all the dash lights did not go off and on but just stayed on as usual. Once, I tried pressing the brakes and the gas at the same time and then releasing the brakes slowly as I gave it more gas, to see if I could prevent it from stalling by doing this and it worked as it did not stall on that occasion. And, as I also mentioned to you before Christmas, I also experienced a few weeks back, after stopping the vehicle, the half stalls and jerky forward motion along with **all** the dash lights going dead (meaning not only the warning lights but every single light in the vehicle, as if all voltage was cut off to everything at once) at the exact same time it was half-stalling in "jerks".
Just a question, other than the ECM, I don't know if there's such a thing as a "voltage regulator" in the Golf. I remember having problems with voltage regulators in the past, but in much older cars, in the 1980's or 1990's if I recall correctly... not sure if anything like that might be in play here ?
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 1, 2024 5:31:06 GMT
Oh oh. It is unlikely to be the alternator regulator. It would just run on the battery.
You may have a very big problem.The 6 speed tiptronic automatic transmissions have two problems. First is that the VW dealers and even bog VW say the transmission is SEAL FOR LIFE and does not require transmission oil changes. VW dealers refuse do a change when I offered to pay. Yet way at the end of their own manual it says to change at 60,000 km. ,for extreme service. The above problem means that the valve body and it's 6 solenoids gets sticky with contamination. MAYBE the trans is trying to be in two gears at the same time. Chech fuel pressure is about 45 to 50 psi.
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 1, 2024 5:52:25 GMT
These cars have truely complicated computers running everything. It's got to be throwing a few codes. Was it EVER in a crash that set off the airbags. How many miles. Has it still got the vacuum pump installed and working. Does it idle EXACTLY at 700rpm OR 740rpm. 740 was a factory recall requirement.
The transmission uses a fluid coupling when pulling away from Zero speed in both first or second. It shouldn't be able to stall the engine.VW stupidly never put a transmission dip stick to look at the fluid level or condition BUT you CAN pull out JUST the center plug of the drain and only a few drops of fluid will come out. Don't undo the bigger outer nut which has a built in sleeve ,as that will drain the entire transmission.
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 1, 2024 6:08:56 GMT
I've reread your stalling issues. There is one circuit the will kill ALL the electrical in the car. In a crash bad enough to fire the air bags it cuts off the fuel pump, rolls down the windows, and turns on the 4 way flashing emergency lights.It kills EVERYTHING else like ignition and dash lights to prevent fire. Has the car had the steering wheel air bag replaced???
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 1, 2024 21:41:20 GMT
Hello - Thanks for your insights. I don't know if the car was ever in a car crash. The one who sold me the car has had it since 2011 when the car was only a year old. I haven't done a check on it, but he did not mention the car ever being in a crash of any kind. Also, when "all shuts down", I don't get any of the other symptoms you mention, like windows coming down, etc. Also, there really are no check engine codes of any kind. Also, it doesn't always stall only from a complete stop, it sometimes half stalls after slowing down and then accelerating again (while trying to accelerate). I've uploaded two videos I've taken today of stalling episodes with details here intended for my mechanic: Here are some more observations from another run with the Golf today. Once again, I drove it around without any issues whatsoever for the first 20-25 minutes, including a run on the highway. Then, the random stalling started again. New for this time, it did stall twice, going from Park to Reverse, both times without me pressing the gas, but it stalled as soon as it got into gear (R). On all other occasions, the stalling was after stoping the vehicle, then accelerating either from a standstill or a near complete stop. It did not stall every single time, but when it did, most of the stalls were short "jerky" half-stalls, but the engine did not stop completely, since I could continue, if I wanted to since after these "half stalls", the engine was still running. In this first video, you'll see right at the start, the stalling episode where all the lights go off for a split second. Then, between approximately 0:30 and 0:50, you'll see two jerky half stalling episodes, and then again, one more around 1:24. drive.google.com/file/d/11SBBH-H6DyPuQUZ7TrYawLmpTVsRSzxA/view?usp=sharing In the second video, it did not stall as much, but you'll still see two jerky half stalling episodes, the first around 0:58 and the second around 2:25. drive.google.com/file/d/1hv0-ordgdawEFloxFSTVIz9064pjFdma/view?usp=sharing
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 2, 2024 20:29:12 GMT
Well first off , theses cars are insanely complicated and any one not a VW dealer mech or totally into VWs is just guessing,, so dont pay for a mechanic.
1 look carefully for any loose or broken hosses. Pull and shake them to see if they move and are causing a vacuum leak. Easy 2 check that no dumby has replaced the vauum pump with one of those dangerous ""delete" plates. Visual easy 3 remove the Mass Flow Sensore,(MFS) spray it clean with the $10.00 Very Special MFS cleaner and NOTHING else. Easy let it air dry at least 30 minutes before reinstalling 4 Carefull check for loose electrical connectors. There are dozens, so mark with bright nail polliish as you find each one. Take it appart and spray lean with electrical contact cleaner. 5check the obvious . Air filter clean, and housing correctly fastened battery connections AND the ground to the cable to car frame connection is solid. 5A Just a wild card, make sure nothing is hanging from you ignition key. Ignition locks can we worn very loose and give intermitant diconnect. 6. Is the throttle sensor set to factory settings? 7. Are the spark plugs tight? Be verrrry carefull when pulling out the sparkcoils. Go slow , you are effectively pulling the inside rubber seals over backwards.
Now it starts to get expensive. Utube review these. To see testing and replacement . The 2.5 has a reputation of failed EGR valves. They're built into the plastic intake manifold. Not my idea of a good idea. Most of the above should throw a code. Its just weird to me you arent getting any. Id like to see a photo of the engine compatment.
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 2, 2024 20:43:49 GMT
Marc Something is totally off here, When the car stalls in the video the check engine wrench flashes. That MUST be a code. Do a very complete check with the ODBEleven. Also the car is lurching like a stuck or just sticky gas pedal, or throttle sensor. Did the previous owner put one of those "special" customisable throttle sensor mitsinto it.
Thats all i've got .
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 2, 2024 20:46:43 GMT
You tube The Humble Mechanic may have ideas
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 3, 2024 0:16:46 GMT
Thanks for all those ideas. You've definitely given me (and my mechanic) some homework ! In his early years, my mechanic actually worked at a VW dealer and is still in contact with one of his buddies that is very much into VW's and has more sophisticated diagnostic tools than he does. For now, he's not charging me for taking some time and trying to figure out what's wrong with my Golf, but I'm not expecting him to take 10 hours on it for free as well...! But again, thanks for all the suggestions. Some of them I can do myself and some I can let him do.
I have the Blue Driver OBD2 reader. Not sure what the OBDEleven will have that mine doesn't have...??
There have been intermittent check engine codes for the throttle body, crankshaft sensor (which was replaced) and misfires, but they were intermittent and didn't come back. As of now, there are no check engine codes, even after all these half stalls. I've read a lot of these random stalling issues with the VW 2.5 and I've often read other owners also not having any codes whatsoever. I've also read elsewhere that a faulty ECM can give many fault codes that aren't even related to anything wrong with the engine or sensors but with the ECM itself. Kind of regretting buying this VW... ! For now, I'll try the easy and inexpensive stuff but might eventually throw in the towel if nothing work..., but for now at least, I'll try your suggestions and hope...!
I'll come back here and give some feedback with what we find.
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 3, 2024 15:38:02 GMT
No codes still. The only thing left is the drivers foot. Not kidding. Try using your fingers to push the gas pedal. Your checking for any sticking or looseness ,in both directions. Remove the rubber air intake immediately ahead of the throttle body.Get someone to move the gas pedal while you watch the throttle plate inside the throttle body. Nothing? Watch YouTube " The Humble Mechanic". He has one where he replaces the vacuum pump the easy way. It clearly shows what the throttle linkage should look like. Very important is that he makes a big deal of marking the throttle position before he loosens it.
That my last guess, honestly. I'm a bit like a dog with a bone. I'll await your news that you found the real problem .
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 4, 2024 18:19:56 GMT
There is one instance when I get check engine codes.
Since I've had it, there have been 3 short episodes, always when I start the engine cold, when the engine sputters for a few seconds, but without stalling. After that initial sputtering, it runs smoothly, albeit a little rough like any engine just started at minus 10 degrees ! After those episodes, I get multiple check engine codes, all for misfiring. It's not a particular cylinder number, but basically all of them plus the "random misfire" code.
It did it again, this morning.
Don't know if there's a link with my random stalling or half stalling issue, because they are very different in nature. When it misfires, the engine sputters but it still turns and runs smoothly after a few seconds. When it stalls or half stalls, it just, well, stalls instantly with no sputtering before hand, as if it's some sort of electrical issue that makes the engine suddenly die! Also had another half stall with "all lights out" for half a second episode, this morning.
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 5, 2024 12:10:37 GMT
Well. A cold start will need extra gas for a rich start. Back to plugged gas Filter My golf Never does that.
Cold metal engine parts could very likely stick. So maybe remove the MFA and $10.00 spray clean. Then carb cleaner for the throttle body. Then reassemble and try again. Any chance it's BAD or water contamination of the gas.? Plugged injectors. Your definitely on a fishing trip. If you pulled the plugs water in the gas would mark the plugs. Injectors CAN be efe
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 5, 2024 12:40:07 GMT
Continuing ....injectors can definitely be checked and cleaned. Your old school VW mechanic will be able to tell you if either of those has happened.
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 6, 2024 17:45:23 GMT
Finally - some codes ! Did an "All systems" scan today and here's what I got:
2010 VOLKSWAGEN Jetta SportWagen 2.5L 5-Cylinder 3VWMX7AJ4AM648255 Odometer: 238,737 kms
6 Confirmed Codes P0302 Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected P0305 Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected P0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
6 Pending Codes P0302 Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected P0305 Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected P0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
0 Permanent Codes
2 Air Conditioning Codes 9481748 High pressure transmitter - open circuit / short to earth CONFIRMED 9481200 Refrigerant pressure - below the lower limit CONFIRMED
2 Door Electronics Driver Side Codes 66304 No description available CONFIRMED 67589 No description available CONFIRMED
2 Door Electronics Passenger Side Codes 67589 No description available CONFIRMED 131329 No description available CONFIRMED
6 Central Electrics Codes 447 ABS-ASR Motor - Electrical Connection 2 STORED 927 No description available STORED 2395 Parking Light Right Front (M3): Electrical Fault in Circuit STORED 2723 EVAP Emission Contr.Sys.Incorrect Purge Flow STORED 2746 Throttle valve control system Malfunction STORED 3384 No description available STORED
8 Engine Control Module Codes P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected (768) MIL/ACTIVE/STORED P0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected (769) MIL/ACTIVE/STORED P0302 Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected (770) MIL/ACTIVE/STORED P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected (772) MIL/ACTIVE/STORED P0305 Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected (773) MIL/ACTIVE/STORED P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected (771) MIL/ACTIVE/STORED
P0332 Knock Sensor 2 (G66): Signal Too Low (818) STORED P068A ECM Power Relay Load Circuit: De-Energized Performance Too Early (1674) STORED
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 6, 2024 18:23:55 GMT
The P068A code points to either the ECM Power relay itself or, as I've seen in many posts and Youtube videos..., the ECM itself.
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 6, 2024 23:04:38 GMT
Finally !!!
. Ok ignore the missfire codes. Its ALL the cylinders. Do this FIRST.
First thing, code 2723 EVAP system. This sysrem recycles evapourated gas in the fuel tank into the engine intake when the computers say it needs to operate AND when the computers say its a its a good time to do so. This is a delicate solenoid very near to the gas tank filler cap area. It is usually easiest and most reliable to replace it with new. The system cycles the gas tank gas vapour through a carbon filter and into the engine intake. They get messed up because people "top up" their gas tanks above the gas stations auto stop level when filling. The high level floods the carbon filter and some of the very fine partical carbon particals get into the valve and jam it partly closed/open. Very common. Mine sounds like an an occasional erratic wood pecker when i first start my car after its been parked for a while. Now CLEAR the codes.
Try the car again for a day or two if possible. Then RECHECK the codes. Note some codes automaically clear right away on restart. Other codes are only checked by the computer after several minutes or hours. Send me the New codes, maybe i have seen them
Do this Second See IF code 2746 Throttle Valve Control reapears. If so do the throttle body cleaning BUT first remove the MFS so you don't damge it. If that doesnt fix it then recheck that the throrrle linkage is correctly installed and possition adjusted.
Very likely the Knock Sensor and miss fire codes will all disapear.
Now the other codes. But i need to reread you last .
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 6, 2024 23:23:35 GMT
This is just a guess. It looks like your car MAY have been in a front crrash. Im suspecious because. Codes for 447 ABS-ASR ASR is the air bag system. You also have strange door codes. And you have a low pressure in the A/C system as when the front radiator for the A/C gets wrecked in a crash.
The cost of airbags is crazy stupid high . Likely $1000.00 or more each. There are driver front, passenger front, passenger side left passenger side right at least. You should NOT try messing with the AIR BAG system . They are explosively dangerous. But be aware that sombody may have fixed up any crash damage without installing new air bags. None of that will cause the stalling.
Hope to hear the stalling got fixed . Danm
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 6, 2024 23:30:50 GMT
OK, thanks again for the suggestions.
Can you give me an idea how to access the "delicate solenoid very near to the gas tank filler cap area". I imagine I have to lift the car ? It's winter here and I only have small ramps that lift this already very low wagon only about 4 inches more off the ground. I could give a try if the access is easy from under the car.
Also, would you by any chance have a link to this part, say, on Rock Auto ? Or is this a "dealer only" part ?
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 7, 2024 0:20:48 GMT
My bad i forgot you have a wagon . It is likely near the front of the engine. Youtube ""The Humble Mechanic" he has a full video of replacing this $20.00 item . Test the old one by blowing through it . He does that to. And confirms its a common problem . He also mentions the other items that it may be within the EVAP SYSTEM.
GOOD LUCK
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 7, 2024 1:04:30 GMT
This may be a duplicate send. My system is gltchy. Lolol
If the problem persists or the code returns the second most likely culpret is the Carbon Filter itself. You are fixing a "system" and it has deveral components. But at least its a small component list. Keep an eye open for broken ,cracked, loose, hoses or electrical connectors. At over 14 years and 250,000k this is one of those things that get ignored till they become the problem
Definately see the youtube The Humble Mechanic ,.. he has a video on just this item , N80 solenoid how to easy test it. Shows what it looks like. Everything you need.
This is one of the cheaest and easyest fixes on the car. Hope this fixes it for you
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 9, 2024 2:11:15 GMT
I should get the N80 solenoid later this week. Will check hoses and some adjacent wiring at the same time as I change the solenoid and will report back here a few days later depending on what I observe after the change.
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 11, 2024 16:14:47 GMT
Dont forget ....install the part...then clear the codes....then try to start... Till later Danm
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 12, 2024 2:13:47 GMT
Yes, ended up ordering from Amazon. Should get it Friday and install sometime this weekend... if I can dig her out of the foot of snow that is expected !
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 12, 2024 23:06:14 GMT
Ok so im just back from Ecuador, to Guatemala. 30C = 86F Where abouts are you ?
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 16, 2024 21:22:41 GMT
I'm in Canada... where it's currently minus 8C ! Haven't had time to do the job yet... but will soon !
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danm
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Post by danm on Jan 16, 2024 22:03:26 GMT
Lolol. I Bet it's Vancouver I'm from Burnaby
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marcp
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Post by marcp on Jan 18, 2024 21:31:04 GMT
Well - finally installed the part. Golf started just like it always starts when it's cold, by multiple misfires that last a few seconds and it even stalled this time. Started it again right after and no misfires. Drove it around for about 20 minutes with no difficulties. But I got this code: "P0444 EVAP System Purge Control Valve "A" Circuit Open". So I may have not connected the wires properly or the contact may not have been made well. It is a "generic" part with a wire adapter to make it fit. Finally, I made sure the arrow was in the same direction.
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