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Post by braspak99 on Jul 2, 2021 10:56:17 GMT
how can you find out with obdeleven whether a control device is equipped with SFD blocking.
How can I find out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2021 11:04:52 GMT
Currently my list says that these are impacted
09 - Central electrics 19 - Diagnostic interface 5F - information electronics
However things do change so its possible other control units are now impacted on the latest cars.
With OBD11 under live data there is an element called SFD but I have not yet had live access to a car to see what this shows for protected and non protected units so the simple answer is try coding, if it works its not if it does not then it dont.
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Post by newty on Jul 3, 2021 14:32:02 GMT
Exactly. There is a channel "SFD activated status" in live data in every SFD protected module. So far: 03, 09, 15, 17, 19, 23, 4B, 75, 5F are SFD protected right now, while 17 is partly protected, allowing some adaptions, but no full access
Rumours are that the number of CU can and will increase in the future.
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Post by laminos on Jul 10, 2021 11:16:29 GMT
Hi dv52, How I can enable the SFD in Golf8 ,I have obdeleven pro but I can't access to control unit to activate some options available in the Golf ,so Could you please let me know how I can fix it ,as I know you the professional, on this .
Thanks in advance
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 12:28:14 GMT
laminos SFD is enabled on the Golf 8 and you cant turn it off using obd11.
OBD11 say 4th quarter of this year (October - December) they will have an interface up and running
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Post by laminos on Jul 11, 2021 19:31:12 GMT
Thanks for the info.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 11, 2021 20:24:16 GMT
hmm............... whilst it's true that OBD11 has indicated its expectation for "an interface" to SFD by 4th quarter this year - I nevertheless believe that it's drawing a very long bow indeed to assume that this "interface" will allow users seamless access to the protected control modules. We must ALL wait and see, but if my hypothesis is correct, I suspect that the "interface" will simply allow the version of OBD11 software/hardware to read the required TOKEN as a kind-of license to then open the protected modules - a bit like the current security code regime for modules.
However, the difference between security codes and SFD TOKENS is that the latter are a one-time-only key and they are a different key for each individual user So, I suspect that OBD11 users will still need to get the TOKEN from the VAG mother-ship with the "interface". As I currently understand the SFD scheme - TOKENS are only issued if the user has a GEKO account with the mother-ship and a GEKO account will only be issued by VAG if a not-insubstantial fee is paid and if the user has certain qualifications (like a business registration number).
Why would VAG initiate these very restrictive validation protocols (and incur a large cost to build the necessary infrastructure to support the SFD regime) and then just allow OBD11 users to simply by-pass these hurdles?
I hate to be the harbinger of bad news - but it just doesn't make sense for the OBD11 solution to SFD to completely negate the complex verification protocols that VAG has implemented into the SFD regime.
More than happy (in fact, I would be delighted) for VARTIS IT to prove me wrong - but IMHO, it's folly for owners of SFD vehicles to expect the "interface" to allow the kind of access to these protected modules that currently applies to non SFD cars (I think)
Don
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2021 22:30:52 GMT
Bottom line only VW and VOLTS IT know the extent of the license agreement for the SFD API.
My personal view is the cost of this access is being picked up by the new charging structure and further there is no guarantee that lifetime pro accounts will have access to SFD interface. and again maybe one click apps on SFD cars are going to get expensive time will tell.
I still think we will get an interface but
VAG Will stop coding on some safety features much more efficiently than with the current 5 digit code VAG Will use this interface information to mark cars when they come in for warranty work - lets face it the current crop of cars are bug ridden so would save VAG Money
I don't credit VAG with this thought but the reality is that no matter how clever the API is there are always teams of hackers out there that will find a way round it. If you look at the Gaming (Playstation type) industry they have been trying since the beginning of time to stop hackers and they have slowed them down at times but not stopped them.
Why is VAG building this interface
Its another income stream on top of the OTA Updates they will sell via there online shops and in fact if they get the pricing right people will just buy online not via these tools.
They get free feedback on what people want (with the ability to limit external coding) and VAG Have made it clear numerous times that selling updates and subscription services are going to be a major future profit stream - Big assumption on my part that this is not just a token exchange
They only have to build one interface its up to the Licensed users to have the extra cost of building / testing / Supporting the interface and dealing with the customer complaints / issues
Voltas are going to get lots of people complaining about;
Not being able to code if the interface is not sized and able to handle the volume of data transfers Why cant i update this or that - because VAG Said so and lets face it they (Voltas) have not been very good and telling people about what can and cant work today.
RIGHT TO REPAIR movement in the US and Europe to a lesser degree will demand this. EU Rules are demanding some extra protection to stop cars being controlled by external parties, there are easier and better ways but then all the other factors will come in to play
I also expect the control units that are currently open to be locked down in the future
And lastly there are already dongles out there doing this, by the back door but still working and who knows maybe a test bed for the interface.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 12, 2021 23:29:34 GMT
Bottom line only VW and VOLTS IT know the extent of the license agreement for the SFD API. hmm........ true - but I don't believe that this agreement is relevant regarding the type of fix for SFD that will be delivered by OBD11!
VAG is a multinational monolith of gigantic proportions. It's primary focus is the sale of cars in virtually every country/nation on this fragile blue planet - in a way that maximizes return-on-investment for the share-holder. Notwithstanding OBD11's view about the importance of this agreement, from VAG's perspective the agreement has to be so small towards their primary objective as to be trivial!!
VOLTAS IT can't possibly believe that VAG would allow the agreement to negate the fundamental elements of the new SFD protocol! And neither should OBD11 users expect that the OBD11 "interface" will do this. At best, the extent of the agreement will be to deliver an interface that accommodates SFD - not negate SFD. Despite what may be in the best interests of VOLTAS, any other solution is just the tail-wagging-the-dog from VAG's viewpoint!!
Hence my belief that tokens will still be required under the OBD11 fix - which means that for these vehicles, OBD11 will be simply a dumb device suitable for reading module data like fault codes (because users in the enthusiast market can't afford GEKO account costs) !!
My personal view is the cost of this access is being picked up by the new charging structure and further there is no guarantee that lifetime pro accounts will have access to SFD interface. and again maybe one click apps on SFD cars are going to get expensive time will tell. hmm...... you may well be correct and some of VOLTAS's past practices have been very dubious IMO - but I suspect that you might be overly generous in your view!!
Another explanation for the "new charging structure" may be the realization by VOLTAS that future revenue from sales will drop dramatically as a result of SFD - because OBD11 will become a dumb-reader only!
I have no idea about penetration of sales for OBD11 devices in the 2 x market-sectors - but my expectation is that the enthusiast-market is the primary revenue stream (unlike VCDS, where I suspect sales in the professional market is much higher). So, the token issue will impact VOLTAS more - IMO.
So, maybe (perhaps?) the "new charging structure" is an attempt to maintain revenue in a SFD environment? If so - the "new charging structure" becomes a cross-subsidy mechanism whereby non-SFD users pay-for the revenue effects of loss-of-sales from SFD users!!
Or, maybe we are both wrong - and the "new charging structure" is simply the result of base shareholder motives; naked grab for more revenue by milking OBD11 users harder!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 8:42:24 GMT
Well we can talk about this till end of year when we will find the answer (maybe). For now my view is still that there will be some form of coding capability without the need for geko account as can be seen in the obdapp offering but hopefully with user making the coding.
The big question for most users will be do I have to pay extra.
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Post by cioce on Jul 13, 2021 15:17:58 GMT
As other software already do, OBDeleven will only allows you to load SFD Tokens manually generated externally, certainly not by the app itself, so without an official VW. Seat, Audi or Skoda dealer account, no one will be able to unlock anything.
Put your soul in peace.
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Post by Thirsty on Jul 13, 2021 15:25:28 GMT
cioce are you sure about that? Where did you get that information from?
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Post by cioce on Jul 13, 2021 15:39:04 GMT
If they have invented a complicated blocking system called SFD, do you think they open again to everyone with a single click the possibility to change everything?
Anyway, that's just my two cents
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 16:32:15 GMT
The reason I still think we will have SOME coding ability is that VCDS / VCP / OBDApp are already up and running and coding on cars and these tools are available to the general public.
VCDS and VCP both only support the import of keys so for those Owners/Businesses that can justify the cost (of getting keys) or have a back door access (as many garage employees do) they would not want to replace it with OBD11
I see very little chance of OBD11 Picking up enough (and I mean any) business to justify building it for Pro users or if the Cost of access is prohibitive for the average user.
Further why would VAG build an API if they are going to block everybody except Professional owners when they already have a tool in place.
But as I said before we all have our own views but we are going to have to wait for the delivery to find out whats what.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 13, 2021 23:20:29 GMT
Yes, as cioce says - the VCDS solution (now in Beta release) requires that the user has a TOKEN (i.e. VCDS accomodates SFD, it doesn't negate the protocol). OBD11 users shouldn't expect that the VOLTAS - VAG agreement will change this same requirement. If the OBD11 "interface" does negate SFD protocols because of this agreement, it would breach the anti-competitive laws in every country in which these vehicles are sold because VAG has given preferential treatment to just ONE third-party diagnostic cable manufacturer - and it has made SFD and its own tool (ODIS) superfluous!! Doesn't make sense at all on any level!! Don
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 23:24:59 GMT
already happening and who says others don't have access to the API
Edit by MOD Link removed to avoid software competitor advertisements
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 14, 2021 0:02:14 GMT
tester: with absolutely no offense intended -the ONLY way that the the solution in your link can operate is for the seller to wheel the TOKEN from the seller's GEKO account to users that buy the Apps. There is NO other way to do this under SFD protocols.
IT IS CURRENTLY ILLEGAL FOR GEKO ACCOUNTS TO BE USED IN THAT WAY - so I suspect that the solution is only viable until legal action happens from VAG.
Don PS: Notice the fee amount -even with the discount !!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2021 8:27:20 GMT
Don No offense taken, its just a discussion and we have to wait till its delivered to see what it will and wont do.
Love the fact the link to the other product has been removed when we have links to caristaapp, VCP, VCDS etc all over the forum......
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Post by newty on Jul 16, 2021 9:36:29 GMT
I am with you mostly. While I totally see that an integrated SFD request is imaginable, you will still need credentials for GeKo to put them into OBD11 to get your 90 minutes of freedom. So instead of "Here is your request, paste answer below" as we see in VCP and VCDS there could be an "Enter GeKo username and pass to automatically unlock SFD"-Dialog.
But even then, we should not overestimate the possibilities. It looks like after unlocking SFD we all can continue with MQBevo as we did on MQB, but as I tried, this is not the case. While you can code almost everything in the central electrics, very little works. For example, you will get menu entires working and all, but no result to that. Looks like something is blocking features on a different level.
And as a last remark to the German one click approach: They have business times for SFD unlocking, looks like somebody is doing the SFD part by hand. So not at all an solution, just some carefully wrapped service.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 10:13:37 GMT
Just don't see the point of Obd11 building an interface just for GEKO account holders.
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Jul 16, 2021 20:57:48 GMT
But even then, we should not overestimate the possibilities. It looks like after unlocking SFD we all can continue with MQBevo as we did on MQB, but as I tried, this is not the case. While you can code almost everything in the central electrics, very little works. For example, you will get menu entires working and all, but no result to that. Looks like something is blocking features on a different level. Interesting! So are you saying that after the TOKEN is accepted and the tweak is completed, the changes don't work with ODIS? It can't be a matter of a further security-code - can it? I had understood that having the TOKEN was sufficient- but maybe not? Have you tried making a change that normally doesn't need a security code - like a modification to long-code? And as a last remark to the German one click approach: They have business times for SFD unlocking, looks like somebody is doing the SFD part by hand. So not at all an solution, just some carefully wrapped service. Yes, that would work - as I said, the German company has a GEKO account and they are "wheeling" the TOKEN to their APP buyers. BUT doing this is entirely contrary to the terms of the GEKO account -so the solution will only last until VAG's legal team takes action
Just don't see the point of Obd11 building an interface just for GEKO account holders.
EXACTLY!! There is no point for a device that is targeted to the enthusiast market!! So OBD11 becomes a device for owners of pre-SFD cars and it becomes a dumb reader for owners of post-SFD cars (which will clearly ONLY be purchased in non-PRO version)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 22:12:16 GMT
EXACTLY!! There is no point for a device that is targeted to the enthusiast market!! So OBD11 becomes a device for owners of pre-SFD cars and it becomes a dumb reader for owners of post-SFD cars (which will clearly ONLY be purchased in non-PRO version)
So again why are OBD11 building an interface that the majority of users (new and old) can't use does not make business sense to me and its far to much of a gamble to assume they could compete in any way with the Serious players in this market at that level.
I don't assume that SFD Cars will give as much as older cars because VAG Are going to be selling updated themselves over the air and at dealers, along with tighter safety restriction (like we are seeing with stop start) so fully expect there to be limitations on what people can do
But still expect some coding to be available as we are already seeing it on the non locked down units (which in time may get locked down) and I have certainly seen some positive results from both the VCDS beta and some other teams that good results can be expected.
So once again my parting comment is "we will have to wait and see"
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Post by newty on Jul 17, 2021 11:37:47 GMT
There is no added security. Codings are accepted and stored. For some things, you do even see menu entries which are operable, but no functional change in some cases.
Others are working fine. I do not know if there is FoD moderating/overriding some settings or something is blocking us. See the performance monitor in MIB2 as a example: You could code anything you want, even disable it. It was only enabled by the correct swap.
I am still wondering what to expect when SFD is finished in obd11 But I personally as a technician, not as a moderator would be more than surprised if VW is releasing a well done coding protection and only 2 years later already gives away its keys.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 12:29:08 GMT
I agree its all very strange but then VW IT (As this is going to be a big future revenue stream for the group) may want this still via Authorized (eg license fee paid and who knows maybe an access charge) but I still cant get my head round why VW and OBD11 would bother building and API unless they are going to provide something at a cost that owners are prepaired to pay and based on what i have seen on the OTA updates they are not priced at a level that large numbers will use. I would also agree with dv52 (Australia) and guys on the VCDS Sites its only a matter of time before VAG start to close down these rogue GEKO account owners but they do have a history of being slow to do such things. Personally I dont care as I am never going to have one of these motors, in fact I was having lunch yesterday with an old Alpha Romeo owner who summed up how i feel "I love the fact that there is a ECU (in his old rusty car) to manage the engine but also that I am not surrounded by nannies who don't let me drive the car how I want".
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gio
Closed beta tester
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Post by gio on Oct 30, 2021 22:43:16 GMT
hmm............... whilst it's true that OBD11 has indicated its expectation for "an interface" to SFD by 4th quarter this year - I nevertheless believe that it's drawing a very long bow indeed to assume that this "interface" will allow users seamless access to the protected control modules. We must ALL wait and see, but if my hypothesis is correct, I suspect that the "interface" will simply allow the version of OBD11 software/hardware to read the required TOKEN as a kind-of license to then open the protected modules - a bit like the current security code regime for modules.
However, the difference between security codes and SFD TOKENS is that the latter are a one-time-only key and they are a different key for each individual user So, I suspect that OBD11 users will still need to get the TOKEN from the VAG mother-ship with the "interface". As I currently understand the SFD scheme - TOKENS are only issued if the user has a GEKO account with the mother-ship and a GEKO account will only be issued by VAG if a not-insubstantial fee is paid and if the user has certain qualifications (like a business registration number).
Why would VAG initiate these very restrictive validation protocols (and incur a large cost to build the necessary infrastructure to support the SFD regime) and then just allow OBD11 users to simply by-pass these hurdles?
I hate to be the harbinger of bad news - but it just doesn't make sense for the OBD11 solution to SFD to completely negate the complex verification protocols that VAG has implemented into the SFD regime.
More than happy (in fact, I would be delighted) for VARTIS IT to prove me wrong - but IMHO, it's folly for owners of SFD vehicles to expect the "interface" to allow the kind of access to these protected modules that currently applies to non SFD cars (I think)
Don
They did it. They proved you wrong. 😀 The new beta brings sfd unlocking for all, and for free. Enjoy
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Post by dv52 (Australia) on Oct 31, 2021 6:00:55 GMT
gio : Hi and thanks for the reply (what is a closed Beta tester?).
Yes indeed - and I'm more than delighted to be "proved wrong" (again). The only forum colleagues that are never "proved wrong" are those that don't write posts and given that I have authored 3,355 posts - well........ it's inevitable that there will be some inaccuracies amongst the nonsense that I write!! Still, with only 16 posts to your name, you have the advantage of identifying others errors whilst being insulated from the same scrutany!! Anyhow, this isn't the first time that I have been "proved wrong" and I'm confident that it wont be the last! I have absolutely no problem with being "proved wrong" - it is by far the best environment in which to learn!! On a personal note, I don't intend to make changes to cars with SFD until much more is known about how the new database that OBD11 will create with their solution works behind the VOLTAS-IT firewall. Whilst I have every confidence that the solution will work from a technical perspective, there is much more that is still unknown. For example, the SFD support page says:
To access SFD functionality for the first time you will be asked to update your personal data*. This data is mandatory by our agreement with Volkswagen AG.
But what are the consequences of OBD11 collecting this data? I assume that "this data" will be eventually sent to Volkswagen AG - but the announcement doesn't make this clear. Plus until now, Volkswagen AG was not aware of the identity of any OBD11 user - what protections will users have in respect of the "primary purpose" of the newly collected data (who are customers of an entirely different legal entity)? For example, knowing the identity of a person as a OBD11 user, can Volkswagen AG use this admission (for a specific purpose) to dispute a warranty claim on a different car that might be owned by the same person? And what part of the new OBD11 database can be given to dealerships, or other registered VW agents? It's ALL very unclear how this solution works outside the technical arena - lots more information needed IMHO.
And of course there is the other unknown about this solution! The "personal data" mentioned in the SFD support page doesn't seem to be enough because it only identifies who is accessing modules with SFD protocols. The missing information is of course what specific module is being accessed and what specific changes are made (and when). ALL this data resides in the user's History records which are stored with his/her account. There is no mention in the announcement about the transfer of OBD11 user History files being part of "our agreement with Volkswagen AG" and if this is to happen, which particular records are passed onto the VW mother-ship. Lot's more information needed.
Finally, before I start using the solution, I want to understand the consequences of Volkswagen AG having this information - particularly when the owner of the car (who might not be me) attempts to make a warranty claim! Anyone who believes that the OBD11 solution permits business-as-usual is being extremely naive!! Whilst it has always been true that diagnostic cable users are accountable for their modifications - the information balance changes substantially if the new OBD11 data stream is now being sent to Volkswagen AG. My suggestion - don't underestimate how powerful the OBD11 database will be in the hands of those making decisions about warranty claims!! But to use your terminology - I would be delighted to be "proved wrong" once again
So alas, I choose to delay my "enjoyment" of the SFD solution until I understand this solution in greater depth. And I will wait until I hear/read the outcomes of other early-adopters in their dealings with the car manufacturer - hopefully you will be among these folk.
Finally, I look forward to the post count that you author approaching a number where I can also reply with the observation "they proved you wrong" .
Don
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Post by newty on Oct 31, 2021 9:50:05 GMT
They did it. They proved you wrong. 😀 Fellow tester, please consider terms and conditions for beta testing before public posting. Lets all be patient with revelations please.
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gio
Closed beta tester
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Post by gio on Oct 31, 2021 20:36:11 GMT
Dv52, there’s a misunderstanding going on.
First of all, I’m Italian, so excuse me for the wrong choice of words.
I really admire you and your work for the VW community and I know I’m not fit to hold a candle to you. I’m deeply serious and not joking here.
The goal of my post was to reveal the sfd unlocking novelty, not making fun of you. The added smiley was not enough, I see. Please accept my apologies if I’ve been involuntarily disrespectful.
Btw, back in topic, I already used other sfd unlocking solutions in the past months and the car has been serviced two times since then. Nobody argued about it, at least until today.
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gio
Closed beta tester
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Post by gio on Oct 31, 2021 20:57:39 GMT
They did it. They proved you wrong. 😀 Fellow tester, please consider terms and conditions for beta testing before public posting. Lets all be patient with revelations please. what I wrote is nothing but the infos already available for all in the support pages, SFD section.
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Post by newty on Nov 1, 2021 14:03:11 GMT
I am well aware that there are announcements for SFD and we are setting up the support and help pages in the next days. Still, sharing details is discouraged.
Regarding SFD and warranty: There is no interface for workshops to get details on the SFD history, so the workshops themselves can not decline any warranty. Still, when it comes to a detail decision directly from VW, they can surely access a more in depth history of the car. How they decide in the future... No idea!
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